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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep 2018 7:20 am 
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Can anyone help me with regional pronunciations of two names, please?

In 1849 Thomas Keylougher married in Lambeth at a protestant church. The spelling of the name was that recorded throughout his life by his wife, an Essex girl transplanted to the East End of London. One assumes it is the Irish surname Keleher or one of many similar spellings. Being English I would pronounce the surname as Keleher to rhyme with Book of Kells. Is there anywhere in Ireland where the first syllable of the name would be more likely to be pronounced 'Key'?

In 1895 Bernard O'Rork (or many different spellings of the surname in censuses and other records) died in a mine in Cumbria. His employers recorded his name as 'Barnet Rooke'. It seems likely he was Catholic as he married in a registry office to a protestant girl. Father Francis. Is there any area of Ireland where Bernard might be pronounced as 'Barnet'.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri 21 Sep 2018 12:03 pm 
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Barnet wrote:
Can anyone help me with regional pronunciations of two names, please?

In 1849 Thomas Keylougher married in Lambeth at a protestant church. The spelling of the name was that recorded throughout his life by his wife, an Essex girl transplanted to the East End of London. One assumes it is the Irish surname Keleher or one of many similar spellings. Being English I would pronounce the surname as Keleher to rhyme with Book of Kells. Is there anywhere in Ireland where the first syllable of the name would be more likely to be pronounced 'Key'?

In 1895 Bernard O'Rork (or many different spellings of the surname in censuses and other records) died in a mine in Cumbria. His employers recorded his name as 'Barnet Rooke'. It seems likely he was Catholic as he married in a registry office to a protestant girl. Father Francis. Is there any area of Ireland where Bernard might be pronounced as 'Barnet'.

Thanks!


Keylougher , probably an anlicization of Irish Ó Céileachair (other English forms similar to Kelleher)
Céi- would be pronounced in irish like Kay-, so the English spelling Keylougher is quite near-Irish

Bearnáird is the Irish name version of Bernard. the first syllable might be pronounced /bar.../ in Irish and the second shortened.

O'Rork/Rooke is of course Ó Ruairc in Irish.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep 2018 8:05 pm 
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Thanks that's really helpful and interesting. I was hoping in particular that the second syllable of Barnet for Bernard might indicate a region of Ireland, as one hears some Irish people call a film -a fillum (though I don't know what region that indicates), but evidently it's a false lead.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep 2018 11:20 pm 
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Barnet wrote:
Thanks that's really helpful and interesting. I was hoping in particular that the second syllable of Barnet for Bernard might indicate a region of Ireland, as one hears some Irish people call a film -a fillum (though I don't know what region that indicates), but evidently it's a false lead.


I believe that extra "uh" sound is called a "syncopated vowel" (Labhrás undoubtedly knows more than I do about that). It's very common all over Ireland, so it's not very useful in identifying regional accents.

To follow up on what Labhrás said about the name Bearnáird, in most dialects emphasis in Irish words normally falls on the first syllable, and later syllables can be very short as a result, so it's entirely plausible that a non-Irish speaker might hear it as Barnet.

I happen to have O'Rourke ancestors from County Offaly. The name originated in what is now County Leitrim (before the counties existed), but spread to nearby counties (such as Offaly) over time. The original form of the name in Irish is Ó Ruairc, and it has been Anglicized as O'Rourke, O'Roark, and just Rourke and Roark (the latter two forms were both used by my ancestors, sometimes with siblings even using different forms). It is a name of Gaelic origin, meaning "descendant of Ruarc", although it is based on a Norse given name.

I'm editing this to add more info, since discussing the surname motivated me to look for more info about its origin. Here's what I found at Wikipedia:

Quote:
O'Rourke was originally Ó Ruairc in Irish, named for their ancestor, King Ruarc mac Tighearnán. Ruarc was named for his maternal grandfather, a Norseman named Hrothekr (whence the name "Roderick" or "Rory"). In Irish, it means "famous king." The Ruarc from whom the name comes was a King of Breifne in the 800's C. E. The first to use his name as a last name was his grandson, King Seán Fearghal Ó Ruairc, King of Connacht and Breifne, died 964 C. E. They claim descent from High King of Ireland Eochaid Mugmedon through his son Brión (whence the Uí Briúin), the half-brother of High King Niall of the Nine Hostages, the acclaimed ancestor of the Uí Néill.


I think there's an error there, since the Irish name doesn't have the word "famous" in it. I assume they meant to say that Hrothekr meant "famous king".

The surname Ó Céileachair originated further to the southwest, in Kerry and Cork (where another of my great-grandparents was born, although I know of no Kelleher ancestors in my family).

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


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