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PostPosted: Sun 20 Jan 2019 8:46 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Yes.I know we use "cuid" a lot, I don't know the rules for it but certainly not as strict as other dialects, there may be exceptions but I can't think of any at the moment but I think I can use it with any plural. It's not just the young people, mostly the older generation I would've thought. When I first joined the forums I thought it odd how strictly "cuid" was used. :D
Give me examples of what "cuid" is not usually used for and I'll comment on that.


I think it isn’t usually used with body parts (as galaxyrocker wrote, eg. mo chosa and not *mo chuid cos¹ – this example is also given in Wiktionary and GnaG), or with family members, so mo thuismitheoirí rather than *mo chuid tuismitheoirí, mo dheartháireacha, rather than *mo chuid deartháireacha, m’uncailí, mo dheirfiúracha, m’aintíní, etc.

Does your dialect use cuid in those instances? If so, do you happen to say those without cuid, or do you always use cuid?

¹ galaxyrocker and Wiktionary give mo chuid cosa, but the gen.pl. is cos, so I’d expect, if one uses cuid for legs/feet, mo chuid cos ‘my share of legs’ instead.


Yes, I would definitely say "tá mó chuid cosa fuar" or "... mo chuid lámha".
I could also leave it out, but I think it kinda adds an emphasis too.

Again I wouldn't see anything wrong with "my chuid deartháireachaí" no lenition and an added "í".

"Mo thuismitheoirí" is a bit formal, like used in school, or on forms. Normally I'd say "m'athair is mo mháthair". Likewise there is no word in Irish for siblings, we say mo dheartháir(eachaí) is mo dheirfiúr(eachaí). "Cuid" is optional, you kinda know when to say it and not to say it.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Jan 2019 8:56 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
The genitive plural is all but dead, and the singular isn't too far behind it. I've even heard 'mo chuid airgead' multiple times from a teacher (he taught in a Gaelscoil and at NUIG for the C1, born and raised in Carraroe), ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. So cosa is definitely used there (also what I got told from another native on my post about cuid on Reddit). Likewise, tuismitheoirí is rarely used (muintir being more common).

Also, interesting Bríd! I would've assumed it was a younger thing, like the increasing use of 'dur'. What about the pronunciation of ó as uaidh?



Yes, we don't use the genitive as much here. I'd see nothing wrong with saying "mo chuid airgead" too.
I heard we also use the dative a lot in Conamara.
Really going to school and learning grammar rules has ruined my native Irish, now I question myself if what I'm saying is right or wrong, I get it mixed up in my head. I don't know if what I'm saying is native or learnt later.

Uaidh -
Did you mean something like? - Theastaigh sé uaidh.
Chuaigh sé ó theach go teach.
Give me an example sentence of when "uaidh" is wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Jan 2019 11:16 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
Quote:
The t-suffix is known as the intrusive t. Intrusive t becomes especially common after c.1750/ 1800, where it was often suffixed to nouns, verbal nouns and adverbs ending in -n, or -s. Hence, canmhain > canmhaint (Ir. canúint; cf. Sc. Gaelic Cànan), aríst, féachain > féachaint etc...

Interesting, An Cionnfhaolach. Could that possibly explain how a surname like Mac Domhnaill (MacDhòmhnaill in Scotland) ended up with a "d" at the end of its anglicized version, McDonald?


I wouldn't think so. The -ld there looks like an English-language phenomenon.

Does terminating -ll become -ld anywhere else in Scottish Gaelic?

The only thing analogous I can think of is found in In the Irish of east Cork, where in some sub-dialects, -ll especially in Sandhi position, become -ld; e.g. mo bhuachaild, go hEochaild.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Jan 2019 12:00 pm 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
CaoimhínSF wrote:
Quote:
The t-suffix is known as the intrusive t. Intrusive t becomes especially common after c.1750/ 1800, where it was often suffixed to nouns, verbal nouns and adverbs ending in -n, or -s. Hence, canmhain > canmhaint (Ir. canúint; cf. Sc. Gaelic Cànan), aríst, féachain > féachaint etc...

Interesting, An Cionnfhaolach. Could that possibly explain how a surname like Mac Domhnaill (MacDhòmhnaill in Scotland) ended up with a "d" at the end of its anglicized version, McDonald?


I wouldn't think so. The -ld there looks like an English-language phenomenon.

Does terminating -ll become -ld anywhere else in Scottish Gaelic?

The only thing analogous I can think of is found in In the Irish of east Cork, where in some sub-dialects, -ll especially in Sandhi position, become -ld; e.g. mo bhuachaild, go hEochaild.


I'd think the change from -ld to -ll (as well as -nd to -nn) and perhaps (at least erroneously) vice versa was a common phenomen in the older language. Often both spellings (and pronunciations?) occured side by side.


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:40 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Yes, we don't use the genitive as much here. I'd see nothing wrong with saying "mo chuid airgead" too.
I heard we also use the dative a lot in Conamara.
Really going to school and learning grammar rules has ruined my native Irish, now I question myself if what I'm saying is right or wrong, I get it mixed up in my head. I don't know if what I'm saying is native or learnt later.

Uaidh -
Did you mean something like? - Theastaigh sé uaidh.
Chuaigh sé ó theach go teach.
Give me an example sentence of when "uaidh" is wrong.


Technically "uaidh" would be wrong in the second sentence. However, from what I've read and heard, it's still often used. Basically, "uaidh" has replaced "ó" as the base form of the preposition.


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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jan 2019 12:52 am 
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Quote:
Technically "uaidh" would be wrong in the second sentence.


wrong in standard Irish, only.

Quote:
However, from what I've read and heard, it's still often used. Basically, "uaidh" has replaced "ó" as the base form of the preposition.


In modern Irish, another preposition has been replaced by the 3rd sg. masculine form:
faoi is used as a preposition but historically it's only the 3sg m prepositional pronoun (ie. under him), the original preposition is fo (retained in Scottish Gaelic).

In Manx, even more prepositions show that evolution.

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jan 2019 11:04 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
However, from what I've read and heard, it's still often used. Basically, "uaidh" has replaced "ó" as the base form of the preposition.


In modern Irish, another preposition has been replaced by the 3rd sg. masculine form:
faoi is used as a preposition but historically it's only the 3sg m prepositional pronoun (ie. under him), the original preposition is fo (retained in Scottish Gaelic).

In Manx, even more prepositions show that evolution.


There are quite a few of those all around the bigger Gaeltacht, aren’t there? air and aig in Scottish (with ar pronounced like air in Irish too, not sure about ag), chuig at least in Connacht (from old 3rd.sg. of cogo; while in Munster dochumchun replaced the base form; in Irish go remained as a similar not-inflected preposition of a slightly different meaning; while Scottish has chun before the article and gu otherwise, with inflection thugam, thugat, thuige, etc.), as (in Irish before article, and everywhere in Caighdean, here Scottish still has à as the base form), leis (before articles)…


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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jan 2019 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
There are quite a few of those all around the bigger Gaeltacht, aren’t there? air and aig in Scottish (with ar pronounced like air in Irish too, not sure about ag),


in Irish, "air" and "ar" are pronounced the same way, in Scottish they are pronounced the same way and also spelt the same way.
"Ag" and "aig" are pronounced the same way in Irish but "aig" doesn't exist in Irish, and in both ScG and Irish, the 3sg m prepositional pronoun is "aige", not "aig".

But I think the preposition "ag" is actually "aige" in Munster", and "chuig" is "chuige" so in this case they use the 3sg m form of the preposition as the basic preposition itself.

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jan 2019 7:42 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Yes, we don't use the genitive as much here. I'd see nothing wrong with saying "mo chuid airgead" too.
I heard we also use the dative a lot in Conamara.
Really going to school and learning grammar rules has ruined my native Irish, now I question myself if what I'm saying is right or wrong, I get it mixed up in my head. I don't know if what I'm saying is native or learnt later.

Uaidh -
Did you mean something like? - Theastaigh sé uaidh.
Chuaigh sé ó theach go teach.
Give me an example sentence of when "uaidh" is wrong.


Technically "uaidh" would be wrong in the second sentence. However, from what I've read and heard, it's still often used. Basically, "uaidh" has replaced "ó" as the base form of the preposition.




I've heard uaidh said in the second sentence, but I'd personally say "ó" but that could be the school influence. One place that is probably not caighdeánach and which I do use is when I'm saying this is from me, like on a card.
Lá Breithe sona, uaidh - Bríd etc.
Happy Birthday, from - Bríd


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Mar 2019 8:20 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
But Connacht is problematic. Here ag + a vowel is lenited, becomes agh + V. Then this /gh/ [ɣ] is reanalyzed as /dh/, because lenited /d/ is pronounced the same. Ag mo, ag do, etc. start to be pronounced similarly to Scottish as /gə mo/, /gə do/… Also do ‘to, for’ in Connacht becomes pronounced as /gə/ (as if spelt go). Connacht grammarians (or so I think I’ve read somewhere, but now I cannot find any actual source on it) of the 19th century decide that it’s not really ag + pronoun, but do (=‘to, for’) + pronoun. The confusion might have been reinforced by the fact, that do actually often governs the verbal noun (but not in this very construction).

On the other hand, as noted at the end, in the Middle Irish (and perhaps Classical Gaelic?) ag and do were commonly used interchangeably in all constructions involving verbal nouns (and ag finally won everywhere in continuous progressive sentences), so some of these Connacht contractions might actually come from do (if they contracted before ag won over do here), so there might have been no confusion here actually…

I recently saw a letter from the 1560s with "atáim agá fhairfraighe" from an Ulster chieftain. With the "agá" being "at its" being proleptic referring to a clause to come.

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