It is currently Fri 21 Sep 2018 11:52 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug 2018 4:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1480
galaxyrocker wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

The chapter on Connacht Irish and Classical Irish in Stair na Gaeilge doesn't seem, as far as I can see (I only took a quick look), to shed any light on this issue. However, I agree, I think it is probably do, realised as dho, as well.



My first thought was to check those two chapters as well, actually. I found little about the syntax of the various verbal noun clauses in either of them; it mostly discussed the formation. In fact, it seems to be that way through the entire book, judging from the index. I also looked in Ó Curáin's The Irish of Iorras Aithneach, but wasn't able to find much there in the way of syntax of the verbal noun; the few examples listed under the verbal noun section of the book on verbs (2) detailed mostly uncommon, and in some cases obsolete, uses of the VN.


That's a slight issue with Stair na Gaeilge, it keeps the same structure and formatting throughout the book: which is a great idea in principle, but it means that certain issues like this one are overlooked.

It is certainly a rare case when you don't find the answer in Stair na Gaeilge.

Unfortunately, all of the dialectal grammars I've looked at are silent on the issue: i.e.

Stair na Gaeilge, Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne and Seana-chaint na nDéise.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug 2018 7:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 07 Feb 2015 11:24 am
Posts: 606
Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
The t-suffix is known as the intrusive t. Intrusive t becomes especially common after c.1750/ 1800, where it was often suffixed to nouns, verbal nouns and adverbs ending in -n, or -s. Hence, canmhain > canmhaint (Ir. canúint; cf. Sc. Gaelic Cànan), aríst, féachain > féachaint etc...

Intrusive t also occurs on verbal terminations ending in -aimís and -aidís in the Irish of east Cork, Waterford, Tipperary, Clare, and west and north Kerry: e.g. do théimíst, dá nglanaidíst etc...

The loss of f in frithissi is not a unique feature; the phenomenon is found throughout the development of the Irish language. The loss of f is attributed to what is known as hypercorrection. Since, lenited f has no sound, confusion arose as to whether f was in fact part of the original word, and thus the initial f often drops out. Hypercorrection also occurs in reverse, whereby f is often added to words which etymologically began with a vowel. In these instances, the f is known as an inorganic f: e.g. Old Ir. co n-accae > f(e)aca (nícon accae > ní fheaca); Old Ir. anaid > fan (nícon anaid > ní fhanann). The phenomenon continues to manifest itself in Modern Irish: iolar/ fiolar 'eagle' and aill 'cliff', Munster Irish: faill (cf. an fhaill, where an aill and an fhaill are indistinguishable).

The loss of personal endings in regards to frithissi/ aḟ- is not uncommon and also occurs with rarely used personal pronouns, e.g. féin. The use of the 3rd singular here as an adverb, meaning 'again', is part of the tendency for 3rd personal sing. of prepositional pronouns to gain adverbial force in general, even in Old Irish itself: íarum literally: 'after him/ it', adverb: 'afterwards'; ann: literally: 'in him/ it', adverb: 'there'. It occurs later in Middle Ir. with riam, literally: 'before him/ it', later used as an adverb for 'before'.

This is particularly fascinating. Thanks for telling!!!

_________________
ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug 2018 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1171
Regarding ag/do, I've asked a few people and there seems to be no agreement. Bourke's grammar (1856), p.136 claims the use of 'do' in progressive sentences is a recent mistake currently becoming popular in his day. However as noted above, both appear in verbal noun constructs back in the Middle Irish period.

Others I've talked to who know Classical Irish say it evolved from a confusion of ag/do rather than coming from either. Others say one or the other. So I really don't know anymore.

_________________
The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Labhrás and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group