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PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018 1:01 pm 
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Hi all,

I would like to get a Rainer Maria Rilke quote translated into Irish and engraved onto a ring. I've gotten a lot of different translations back from friends and other Irish speakers so just putting it out there to see what the general consensus would be on a forum like this.

¨Where I create, there I am true¨

I grew up in Leinster so I suppose a preference for standard Irish but not fussy.

Thanks in advance


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 Post subject: Re: ENGRAVING on a Ring
PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018 2:12 pm 
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jaffabug wrote:
Hi all,

I would like to get a Rainer Maria Rilke quote translated into Irish and engraved onto a ring. I've gotten a lot of different translations back from friends and other Irish speakers so just putting it out there to see what the general consensus would be on a forum like this.

¨Where I create, there I am true¨

I grew up in Leinster so I suppose a preference for standard Irish but not fussy.

Thanks in advance


I think the first thing we need to ask is "how literal do you want to be"? For example, where the quote says "where"...is it an actual location that's meant (as in "the place in which I create"), or can it be paraphrased as "when"? Little things such as this have to be hashed out before you can get an accurate translation.

Could this be paraphrased as "When I am creating, I am fully myself" or something to that effect?

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: ENGRAVING on a Ring
PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018 7:50 pm 
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Thanks Redwolf,

It doesn´t have to be a literal translation at all, for me it represents the act of creating as opposed to a specific place so - or indeed that the it is referring to a creative person and when they create, they are being true to themselves, complete, whole etc. so ´when´would fit in fine. I guess I'm just looking for a translation that captures the essence of the quote, I know it's not always possible depending on the language and the syntax.

Any suggestions would be welcome


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jul 2018 8:45 pm 
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Some ideas:

An áit ina bhfuil mé ag cruthú, siúd í an áit ina bhfuil mé dílis dom féin.
"Where I create, there I am true (to myself)." (Very literal, therefore long.)

But you are going to be pressed for space on a ring, so perhaps:

Nuair a bhím ag cruthú, bím dílis (dom féin).
"When I am creating, I am true (to myself)."

I wonder if we could get away with just:

Ag cruthú a bhím dílis
"It is while creating that I am true"

Await further input ...

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 4:58 am 
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Something feels very wrong to me about cruthú being used without an object. Even the liberal foclóir.ie suggests obair a chruthú for 'to create (to produce art)'. I can't say it isn't possible, but I recommend caution.

I would probably translate the sentiment of your quotation as:
Bím dílis dom féin agus obair do mo chruthú
(I am faithful to myself while I am creating [work])

I would probably translate the quote itself this way (to more closely resemble the original):
Mar a mbíonn obair do mo chruthú, is ann a bhím dílis dom féin
(Where I am creating [work], there I am faithful to myself)

I think that the use 'bím' as in Breandán's second translation is more appropriate here than '... bhfuil mé' in his first.

I am afraid I must say that Breandán's posited third option is not a possibility in my eyes. I am not confident about the correct grammatical terms, but using a participle in this way is unfortunately not possible in Irish, to my knowledge.

Alas, I am not able to think of any way to translate this that would make it shorter. The eight syllables of the original are... dauntingly little for so much meaning.

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ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 8:26 am 
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Quote:
Even the liberal foclóir.ie suggests obair a chruthú for 'to create (to produce art)'. I can't say it isn't possible, but I recommend caution.

I have no idea, what the real usage out there is, but FGB claims cruthaigh is both transitive, and intransitive, which suggests it is fine to use it without a direct object.


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 8:51 am 
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A Chúmhaí, I invite you to go and read the forum rules, where you will note that it is requested that translations and suggestions in Irish be marked with a bold typeface, using the [ b ] tag, _not_ italics.

Secondly, you appear often to make bold unsubstatiated statements about other people's translations "not sounding right" to your ear or "not being possible in Irish". Those kinds of comments are more indicative of your lack of experience with the language. You would do well to take a leaf out of Labhrás' and Errigal's books. Try to make your statements less emotional and more factual, please.

Cheers. :wave:

Cúmhaí wrote:
Something feels very wrong to me about cruthú being used without an object. Even the liberal foclóir.ie suggests obair a chruthú for 'to create (to produce art)'. I can't say it isn't possible, but I recommend caution.

Cruthaigh is both a transitive and intransitive verb. Intransitive mean that it can be used without an object.
(Crossed with Silmeth's post. :hullo:)

If you look beyond the basic dictionary entries to the example sentences in focloir.ie, you will also find examples with ag cruthú without an object, though admittedly it does tend to mean "flying/getting along fine/swimmingly/well". I'll come back to that shortly.

Cúmhaí wrote:
Bím dílis dom féin agus obair do mo chruthú.
(I am faithful to myself while I am creating [work])

Someone else may correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't obair do mo chruthú mean "work creating me". I think "while I am creating [work]" would be agus mé ag cruthú (oibre/oibreacha).
Cúmhaí wrote:
I would probably translate the quote itself this way (to more closely resemble the original):
Mar a mbíonn obair do mo chruthú, is ann a bhím dílis dom féin
(Where I am creating [work], there I am faithful to myself)

Nice use of mar, hadn't seen that one before.

Again, I think what you have means "where work is creating me". If you mean "where work is being created by me", then I would suggest mar a mbíonn obair á cruthú agam, or mar a mbím ag cruthú (oibre/oibreacha)..

Cúmhaí wrote:
I think that the use 'bím' as in Breandán's second translation is more appropriate here than '... bhfuil mé' in his first.

There are two ways to construct the indirect relative in Irish. Both of the following are correct:

an áit a bhfuil mé ann

an áit ina bhfuil mé

Cúmhaí wrote:
I am afraid I must say that Breandán's posited third option is not a possibility in my eyes. I am not confident about the correct grammatical terms, but using a participle in this way is unfortunately not possible in Irish, to my knowledge.
Do anyone else, preferrably a more advanced speaker, have an objection to fronting ag cruthú in this manner?

Another option has since come to mind:

i gcruthaitheacht a bhím dílis (dom féin)

Await further input ...

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:18 pm 
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Just a suggestion:

Is nuair a bhíonn mé ag cruthú a bhíonn mé mé féin.

It’s when I’m creating that I am myself.


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:28 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Just a suggestion:

Is nuair a bhíonn mé ag cruthú a bhíonn mé mé féin.

It’s when I’m creating that I am myself.

That's great, a Bhríd, but I wonder if it will fit on a ring. (We need to know the character limit for the ring.) Is there any way to shorten it?

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:33 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Just a suggestion:

Is nuair a bhíonn mé ag cruthú a bhíonn mé mé féin.

It’s when I’m creating that I am myself.

That's great, a Bhríd, but I wonder if it will fit on a ring. (We need to know the character limit for the ring.) Is there any way to shorten it?



Nuair a bhíonn mé ag cruthú bíonn mé mé féin.

That's the shortest I can do. :D


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