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 Post subject: The copula, future forms
PostPosted: Sat 12 May 2018 10:50 pm 
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As far as I know the copula doesn't exist in a specific form for the future, 'is' is sometimes used.
So, I'm wondering how you translate the below, I've also included my attempts.

He will be the family doctor -> beidh sé mar an dochtúir teaghlaigh
The shop will be mine-> ? -> ... in present -> is liomsa an siopa
The shop will not be mine-> ?
If the shop will be mine-> ?
I will hate the dog -> beidh gráin agam ar an madra
the thing, that will be possible to do -> an rud a bheifear in ann a dhéanamh -> in present -> an rud is féidir a dhéanamh

I am looking for ways to say the above in isolation without needing context for whether the
present or future is intended.

I've read elsewhere that 'budh' was(/is?) the future copula. Can this still be used? How did it fall out of regular use?
Is it conceivable that it will fall back into regular use?

Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Mon 14 May 2018 10:17 am 
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Quote:
He will be the family doctor -> beidh sé mar an dochtúir teaghlaigh


I'd understand this like "he'll be like the family doctor".
I'd say "Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh".

Quote:
The shop will be mine-> ? -> ... in present -> is liomsa an siopa


in the future I think you can say otherwise: Gheobhaidh mé an siopa.
Or maybe "Beidh an siopa agam" ?

Quote:
I will hate the dog -> beidh gráin agam ar an madra


yes

Quote:
the thing, that will be possible to do -> an rud a bheifear in ann a dhéanamh -> in present -> an rud is féidir a dhéanamh


aye, or "an rud a fhéadfar a dhéanamh"

Quote:
I am looking for ways to say the above in isolation without needing context for whether the
present or future is intended.

I've read elsewhere that 'budh' was(/is?) the future copula. Can this still be used?


I don't know, to me it's just an old spelling for "ba" (ie. past & conditional). In Scotland they still spell it "bu". The Donegal form "ba dh'é..." sounds like "budh é" actually.

Quote:
Is it conceivable that it will fall back into regular use?


I don't think so since nobody knows it :)
But since it looks like native speakers have managed to communicate in Irish without the future copula for centuries, I think we can also cope without it :)

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PostPosted: Mon 14 May 2018 3:10 pm 
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Conaire wrote:
As far as I know the copula doesn't exist in a specific form for the future, 'is' is sometimes used.
So, I'm wondering how you translate the below, I've also included my attempts.


I really don't think there is necessarily any need for copular expressions in the future.
The copula is important for identifying and for classifying, but these do not happen in the future.
The number of other things like opinions and ownership that can be expressed with the copula can usually be expressed in another way without it.

Personally I think if it does not seem natural to just use the same present form for the future, it is better to try and express yourself in another way rather than worrying about a future copula. But of course when it does seem natural then sure, right?

Some random sentences I just made up that feel right to me with a future meaning:
is liomsa inniu é ach ní liomsa go deo é
is breá liom anois é ach b'fhéidir nach maith liom amárach é
beidh le feiceáil i gceann míosa an maith léi é nó nach maith

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PostPosted: Tue 15 May 2018 9:20 pm 
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Thanks for the replies :wave:

Quote:
"Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh".

This means he will be a family doctor? How can you use the definitive article here?
I was trying to use "mar" like in the title for this article: https://tuairisc.ie/beidh-se-mar-chuis-aithreachais-go-la-mo-bhais-agam-nar-chuireas-bib-an-mhaoir-foirne-orm/.

Quote:
In the future I think you can say otherwise: Gheobhaidh mé an siopa.
Or maybe "Beidh an siopa agam" ?

Does this mean you have to change the meaning slightly to have this sentence in the future?
Or how would you say, for example, before stealing something, 'I will get it, I will have it, but it will not be mine'.

Quote:
I don't think so since nobody knows it :)

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/52844.html?1290426697
That's the link I found about "budh". It seems like it was just wishful thinking on my part that this could be resurrected.



Quote:
The copula is important for identifying and for classifying, but these do not happen in the future.

Why is that the case? You might want to say 'the man will be the doctor' or 'the man will be a doctor'.

Quote:
The number of other things like opinions and ownership that can be expressed with the copula can usually be expressed in another way without it.

I'm curious as to how this came about. It seems strange that you can express something in the same way in the past and present but have to use what seems like a 'workaround' in the future.

Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2018 12:29 am 
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Conaire wrote:
Thanks for the replies :wave:

Quote:
"Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh".

This means he will be a family doctor? How can you use the definitive article here?


Yes, this means "he will be a doctor".
It isn't the definite article but a possessive adjective "his" (ina = in his)

Beidh sé ina dhochtúir "He will be in his doctor" - > He will be a doctor.
Tá mé i mo dhochtúir "I am in my doctor" -> I'm a doctor.

bí + i + possessive (mo, do, a, a, ár, bhur, a) denotes a state, a status, a role in which I am, hence i = in.
And it is my status, so "i mo = in my".

Conaire wrote:


Yes, sometimes mar is used, too, though often the literal meaning "be like a cause ..." or "act as a cause" is still (more or less) overt.

Conaire wrote:
Quote:
In the future I think you can say otherwise: Gheobhaidh mé an siopa.
Or maybe "Beidh an siopa agam" ?

Does this mean you have to change the meaning slightly to have this sentence in the future?


The meaning of futurity doesn't go well with a particle which can only classify or identify: the Irish copula.
It isn't a real verb anymore in Irish. It is rather an equal sign.
You can't identify or classify something which doesn't exist yet. That's why future forms fell out of use. Future means becoming, gaining, getting, acting. So, verbs like faigh fit much better.
The meaning doesn't change but you must be more precise how something will become something else or how it will be that you will possess it. It will be next to you, beidh sé agat, so sometimes in the future you will be able to say "Is liomsa é" ;).


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PostPosted: Wed 16 May 2018 6:43 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Conaire wrote:
Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh".
This means he will be a family doctor? How can you use the definitive article here?

Yes, this means "he will be a doctor".
It isn't the definite article but a possessive adjective "his" (ina = in his)

I might have phrased that ambiguously, I want to use the definitive article, to say 'he will be the family doctor'.
That's why I was using mar.
Going by your advice below I guess I could say 'Déanfar an dochtúir teaghlaigh do" instead.

Is it not possible to use the definite article with the bí + i + possessive construction?

Labhrás wrote:
The meaning of futurity doesn't go well with a particle which can only classify or identify: the Irish copula.
It isn't a real verb anymore in Irish. It is rather an equal sign.

That's very interesting.
I still don't fully understand it though. If you are sure something will be a certain way in the future, why can't you can identify that the same way as the present?


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PostPosted: Thu 17 May 2018 10:34 am 
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Conaire wrote:
I might have phrased that ambiguously, I want to use the definitive article, to say 'he will be the family doctor'.
That's why I was using mar.

Oh, I see. I should read more carefully.

You can't use neither mar nor bí + i with definite article here.
Both are rather used alike to classifications only (... is a doctor).
But you could use ar (Beidh sé ar an dochtúir) though that is rather confined to superlatives (ar an dochtúir is fearr) or ordinals (ar an chéad dochtúir).

Quote:
Going by your advice below I guess I could say 'Déanfar an dochtúir teaghlaigh do" instead.

There's a slight difference in meaning between:
Déanfar an dochtúir teaghlaigh de. = He'll be made the family doctor. / One will make him the family doctor.
Déanfaidh an dochtúir teaghlaidh de. = He'll become the family doctor.

Quote:
That's very interesting.
I still don't fully understand it though. If you are sure something will be a certain way in the future, why can't you can identify that the same way as the present?

I don't know.
The resamblance of past tense badh and future tense budh might have played a role in abolition of the future form. (both probably pronounced /bə/)
A relative form (bhus) survived a while longer.


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PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2018 1:17 am 
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Conaire wrote:
Quote:
The copula is important for identifying and for classifying, but these do not happen in the future.

Why is that the case? You might want to say 'the man will be the doctor' or 'the man will be a doctor'.

The copula is expressing something permanent, something existential. These things are either true now or they are not true. If it is not true now, then the copula would not be appropriate, regardless of your expectations for the future.
That is my understanding, at least.
There are other ways in Irish to express things that are not existential. Things like "beidh sé ina dhochtúir" "beidh sé ar dhochtúir an teaghlaigh" "lá éigin dochtúir a bheas ann" etc. etc.

I think the problem here is that you are thinking of "he is" and "he will be" as the same verb and idea, whereas they are fundamentally different because one is fundamentally true and one is not (in the present or in the past). In English we express them with the same structures, but that is not necessarily true in other languages. This same problem would be yours in Japanese, which has a copula similar to irish, or in Russian, Persian, Chinese, etc., which have different ways of talking about the future as well. It is really English and other Western European languages that are exceptional in expressing these two ideas similarly, not the other way around.

At least, as I always say, that is my take on it. Not necessarily 100% accurate.

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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018 12:37 pm 
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Conaire wrote:
Quote:
Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh.
This means he will be a family doctor? How can you use the definitive article here?

I think the definite article here means "our", does it not?

In Irish to convey that meaning you could say:

Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh dúinn.
"He will be the/our family doctor" literally "a family doctor for us."

Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh againn.
"He will be the/our family doctor" literally "We will have him as a family doctor."

Beidh sé ina dhochtúir teaghlaigh linn.
"He will be the/our family doctor" literally "a family doctor with respect to us."

Depending on the context, i.e., if "the" refers to someone else, those compound pronouns may need to be changed, e.g., dóibh, acu, leo, etc.

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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