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 Post subject: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar 2018 6:04 pm 
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Hi! I've written a few threads here, I figure it might be best just to centralize and create a new thread with where I'm at now. For reference, previous threads are here: http://www.irishlanguageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5247 and here: http://www.irishlanguageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5289.

I'm writing a story and script, so I want to make sure that the words I'm using are correct. I don't know the exact form of the Irish dialect, but I would love it if someone could tell me what these are so I can know what to ask for in the future. I'm desiring to match whatever in which these currently accepted/established terms would be used:

    - An Sídhean - the fairy mound
    - aes sídhe / daoine sídhe - people of the mounds
    - Airgetlám - silver hand/arm
    - Sluagh - horde

(And do even those agree on the same Irish form?)

The glossary of terms I'm needing to confirm as
1) correct and
2) following the same Irish form as above
are as follows:

    01. An Rudalann - the human realm / "the place of things"
    02. cineál rudaí - humanity / "the race of things"
    03. an fiáin - “the wild” (is there any subtext to this translation?)
    04. *lánanma - couple, as in handfastings
    05. *násad - assembly
    06. *An Ancaire - the anchorite
    07. *An tArdsagart - the high priest
    08. *Mingary - the quiet place
    09. *Forosnai - illuminated / that which illuminates
    10. argat - silver (is this a noun?)
    11. clann - descendents, offshoots
    12. *Slane - Dian Checht's well (is this a noun?)
    13. Imbolc / Samhain / Bealtaine / Lugnasad - do all these agree in dialect?
    14. ogam as opposed to ogham?

* those starred weren't translated for me, but found elsewhere, and I just want to confirm they follow the form/flow/dialect of the others.

And finally, just if these are correct and what form they're in - I found them on a website, but they can be more modern than the above if need be:

    01. Dá fhada an lá tagann an tráthnóna - No matter how long the day, the evening comes
    02. Ná lagadh aes sídhe do lámh - May the fairies never weaken your hand

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr 2018 11:48 pm 
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I've made some comments/suggestions in red below. I assume that you're already aware that many of the words are in Old Irish. I don't know it well (though I can recognize some of it). There are a few people on the forum from time to time who do know some Old Irish, so they may be able to help further. If I don't have a comment on something below, then I don't have any helpful info.

- An Sídhean - the fairy mound
Possibly an Old Irish form. The singular is now just [sidh in the old spelling]. Sidhean actually looks like an old-fashioned (or Scottish Gaelic) plural.

- aes sídhe - people of the mounds Old Irish. I've seen it before with that meaning.
- daoine sídhe - people of the mounds
This works, with sidhe as an an older genitive form. If you mean to say "mounds" as a plural, it would now be daoine na síthe.

- Airgetlám - silver hand/arm
Definitely Old Irish. A compound made of words now written as airgead and lámh, which would not normally be combined in modern speech that way (it would be lámh airgead instead).

- Sluagh - horde
An older form of what is now slua. It can also mean less judgmental things such as just a crowd.

-An Rudalann - the human realm / "the place of things"
Presumably Old Irish, made up of rud ("thing") and lann (a place where the first part of the compound word is found), perhaps with ruda as old plural form.

- cineál rudaí - humanity / "the race of things" Literally: "[a] race of things".

- an fiáin - “the wild” (is there any subtext to this translation?)
It's now mostly just an adjective meaning "wild", but there are expressions in which it means something like "the wild".

- lánanma - couple, as in handfastings
Presumably Old Irish, made up of lán ("full" or "complete") and anam ("soul"), although the "lan" part might be a old form of lam/lámh, meaning "hand".


- násad - assembly

- An Ancaire - the anchorite Correct. Still works in Modern Irish. Also just means "anchor".

- An tArdsagart - the high priest
Correct. Still works in Modern Irish [corrected per the discussion below].

- Mingary - the quiet place

- Forosnai - illuminated / that which illuminates

- argat - silver (is this a noun?) Yes. Modern Irish form is airgead.

- clann - descendents, offshoots
Correct. Still works in Modern Irish. Can also mean family (but mostly used that way in Scottish Gaelic).

- Slane - Dian Checht's well (is this a noun?)

- Imbolc / Samhain / Bealtaine / Lugnasad - do all these agree in dialect?
Yes, but the last one is usually written as Lúnasa in Modern Irish.

- ogam as opposed to ogham?
Ogam is an Old Irish form, which eventually would have been written with a dot over the "g", then later with the inserted "h" taking the place of the dot.

Dá fhada an lá tagann an tráthnóna - No matter how long the day, the evening comes
Ná lagadh aes sídhe do lámh - May the fairies never weaken your hand
Both phrases are in correct Modern Irish, except that aes sidhe is an older expression, as noted above.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr 2018 9:08 am 
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Quote:
Correct. Still works in Modern Irish, but as an t-Ardsagart.

Isn’t the hyphen always dropped before a capital letter in Modern Irish, so an tArdsagart (and an t-ardsagart when not capitalized)?


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr 2018 10:39 am 
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silmeth wrote:
Quote:
Correct. Still works in Modern Irish, but as an t-Ardsagart.

Isn’t the hyphen always dropped before a capital letter in Modern Irish, so an tArdsagart (and an t-ardsagart when not capitalized)?


Yes, an tArd... and an t-ard...


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Sun 08 Apr 2018 9:22 pm 
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06. Should be An tAncaire/An t-ancaire/an t-aincaire (same as 07).

The only forum member who can reliably advise you with Old Irish is Embarien, a fairly infrequent contributor. I see he visited the forum just a few days ago, but either he wasn't interested in this thread or didn't see it. There are a few things there which need correcting but I won't be able to do anything till Friday or Saturday.


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr 2018 4:04 am 
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I just threw this a quick glance, but was immediately suspicious. "Rudalann" does not agree with me at all. Using a plural with a suffix like that is, in my mind, a big red flag.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr 2018 10:39 am 
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Quote:
- An Sídhean - the fairy mound
Possibly an Old Irish form. The singular is now just sí [sidh in the old spelling]. Sidhean actually looks like an old-fashioned (or Scottish Gaelic) plural.

- aes sídhe - people of the mounds Old Irish. I've seen it before with that meaning.
- daoine sídhe - people of the mounds
This works, with sidhe as an an older genitive form. If you mean to say "mounds" as a plural, it would now be daoine na síthe.


"dh" wouldn't be used in Old Irish except at the beginning of words. Also -an is not an old-fashioned plural, it's a Scottish Gaelic plural. But Scottish Gaelic doesn't use the acute accents (at least not on i)...

aes sídhe is a blend of old/middle Irish and Modern Irish in its old spelling.

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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Wed 11 Apr 2018 5:35 pm 
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It does look like you have a mixture there of Old/Middle Irish and modern Irish with older spelling. Just to explain a bit on the terminology:
Old Irish is from the first century,
and Middle Irish is from the 10th to 12th centuries. Only a one or two people on this forum can advice on those. Certainly not me.

We had a spelling reform in the 1950. So some of the words you have are Modern Irish but with the pre-50s spelling.

Personally I recommend you use modern Irish in all of it, and to make it simpler use modern spelling too. It doesn't take away from the story and you will have consistency.

Like Cúmhaí said "rudalann" sounds odd.
I think extra-terrestrials would think of a better name for us than "things". :)


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Fri 13 Apr 2018 4:34 pm 
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Quote:
Old Irish is from the first century,

Old Irish is a name given to the language of 7th–9th centuries – the language of first Irish Christian monks and missionaries.

Earlier stage is called Primitive Irish – the language of ogham inscriptions, which is very archaic, it does not show grammatical mutations yet, has old grammatical case endings etc. – it was attested between 4th and 7th–8th century (AFAIK a few late ogham inscriptions were written in the archaic language at the same times that Christian monks were already writing in obviously later stage of the language… which suggests the druids kept their literary language archaic, resisting the changes happening in common speech, similar to how written Latin was different than the spoken language in late Roman Empire).

There are no written attestations of any earlier stage of the Irish language (and around the 1st century it would probably be still quite close to other early Celtic languages – like Gaulish and Celtiberian).


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 Post subject: Re: Story Glossary
PostPosted: Fri 13 Apr 2018 8:25 pm 
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Thank you all for your time and input! I truly appreciate it. I am looking to go more toward older forms, agreeing with aes sídhe. On that note, so I'm seeing that "sídhe" are the hills, but "síde" is the appropriate older spelling? So would it be aes síde?

If An Sídhean is pluralized incorrectly using a Scottish Gaelic form, how might I pluralize "the fairy mounds" (with root from aes sidhe) to agree in Old (er) Irish?

I do actually need "place of things" and "race of things" - in this universe, humans are like pawns/toys/objects, to be used and discarded, so the closest concept is to call them a thing (and therefore dehumanize them). If Rudalann is unsatisfactory, what would be better? What makes it a 'red flag'?

If an fiáin is more like an adjective, how would I say, in older form, "the wild"? As in, the wild unknowable untamable whateverness? Into 'the wild'?

"Ná lagadh aos sí do lámh" - and that would be correct in modern contemporary Irish, yes, then?

Thanks!


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