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 Post subject: Tuiseal Ginideach Thread
PostPosted: Fri 29 Dec 2017 9:25 pm 
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Dia dhaoibh go léir!

I've been doing some study on the genitive recently using my new copy of A Grammar of Modern Irish by Pól Ó Murchú (highly recommended). I'm hoping to get your feedback on some grammar points as I work my way through this section.

4.14 states that a verbal noun or an indefinite noun in the genitive take a h following slenderized plurals e.g. buidéil bhainne, éisc mhara, faochan chapaill. So, are these forms correct?

báid chabhlaigh (navy boats)
fóid mhóna (sods of turf)
*gais féir (blades of grass)
seabhaic shléibhte (mountain hawks)


The same paragraph also states that you lenite a noun when the last consonant of the previous word (in the singular) is slenderized through inflection. Examples given are toirtín aráin choirce, sárú gealltanais phósta.

toirtín aráin choirce = an oat-bread scone ?
sárú gealltanais phósta = violation of engagement ?

arán coirce = oat bread?
toirtín aráin = a cake of bread ?

So the only reason coirce takes a h is because the n in arán has been made slender?

gealltanas pósta = a wedding engagement
sárú gealltanais = breaking of a promise

Pósta takes a h because gealltanas has a slender genitive ending? Would this be correct then?

a (female?) lamb > uan caorach
the weight of a lamb > meáchan uain chaorach?








*4.16 states that f isn't lenited to avoid confusion.


Bheinn fíorbhuíoch as aon chabhair a thabharfadh sibh dom!


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Dec 2017 9:28 pm 
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Yes. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jan 2018 10:17 pm 
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Quote:
So the only reason coirce takes a h is because the n in arán has been made slender?


not exactly, it's because arán is masculine genitive singular. Because with another noun, masculine singular in the genitive, even with a broad final consonant or a vowel, the following word would have been lenited (except if it's an exception: dentals rule etc).

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jan 2018 8:41 am 
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Just keep in mind that these aren't really extra rules. A noun in the genitive like this is just functioning as a adjective and obeys the mutation rules of adjectives.

fóid mhóna is just móna functioning as an adjective.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan 2018 12:17 pm 
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Go raibh maith agaibh as bhur bhfreagraí

Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
So the only reason coirce takes a h is because the n in arán has been made slender?


not exactly, it's because arán is masculine genitive singular. Because with another noun, masculine singular in the genitive, even with a broad final consonant or a vowel, the following word would have been lenited (except if it's an exception: dentals rule etc).


Thanks for the clarification. I suppose what you've written explains the phrase, "bean bhaile mhóir". Since baile is masculine genitive the following word is lenited.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Just keep in mind that these aren't really extra rules. A noun in the genitive like this is just functioning as a adjective and obeys the mutation rules of adjectives.

fóid mhóna is just móna functioning as an adjective.


An excellent point that I overlooked! Go raibh míle maith agat.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jan 2018 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose what you've written explains the phrase, "bean bhaile mhóir". Since baile is masculine genitive the following word is lenited.


I see now that this should be "bean baile mhóir".

The book gives a list of scenarios where there is no lenition following a feminine noun. 4.16 has the following:

(no lenition) following an abstract noun when a genitive of a verbal noun or appositional genitive is not in question

e.g. aois gadhair , airde fir, intleacht mná, acmhainn grinn

but

cúis gháire
cúis mhagaidh
cabaireacht chainte.

I'm lost here. Can someone please clarify this point?


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jan 2018 1:22 am 
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I wonder:
1. if there are people who master these rules of exceptions to the lenition
2. if these standard rules really exist in native speech, or even in native writing.

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan 2018 5:41 am 
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The recognition that these are acting as adjectives is crucial
Because otherwise you would be looking for the rules of the double genetive
Which would lead to
toirtín arán coirce
and
sárú ghealltanas pósta

unless I am mistaken

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan 2018 5:44 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
I wonder:
1. if there are people who master these rules of exceptions to the lenition
2. if these standard rules really exist in native speech, or even in native writing.



1. Nach tusa duine acu? ;-)
2. Think about how it is common practice in English writing to write "if I was you" and even in formal texts such violations as "it is important that you are aware who you are speaking with"
Even English which is spoken natively by thousands of highly educated professionals and erudite authors!!

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan 2018 12:51 pm 
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Quote:
1. Nach tusa duine acu? ;-)


Ní hea. Nuair a bhím ag scríobh i nGaeilg, muna mbíonn's agam ar chóir séimhiú a chur ar litir ineacht, amhancaim ar leabhar ghramadaí. Níl na heisceachtaí uilig ar eolas agam go fóill :oops: Tá cásannaí ann nach dtigthear rómhinic orthu :)

Quote:
2. Think about how it is common practice in English writing to write "if I was you" and even in formal texts such violations as "it is important that you are aware who you are speaking with"
Even English which is spoken natively by thousands of highly educated professionals and erudite authors!!


that's the difference between standard English and its dialects.
I don't know if people write "if I was you"... to me it's wrong, because my English is fairly standard, it's not my mothertongue, and I'm not a specialist of English dialects at all.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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