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 Post subject: I desire...
PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov 2017 4:58 am 
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Just learned that fonn == desire.

Can this be used as follows??

Tá fonn orm tú a fheicall amárach == I desire(want) to see you tomorrow


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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov 2017 8:57 am 
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Vitaee wrote:
Just learned that fonn == desire.

Can this be used as follows??

Tá fonn orm tú a fheicall amárach == I desire(want) to see you tomorrow


yes.
But it is fheiceáil


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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov 2017 3:08 pm 
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Thanks again. Think I'm starting to realize the importance of getting a handle on verbal nouns.


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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017 9:28 pm 
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I mentioned this earlier, but I have confirmed it now in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil that in this case you must use thú in the standard.
This is on page 131 of the CO, sections 8.2.2 and 8.2.3

According to the standard, thú is used when the object of a verb or when in the second part of a copula structure ("aithním thú" "mo náire thú"). Tú is used everywhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017 10:28 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
I mentioned this earlier, but I have confirmed it now in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil that in this case you must use thú in the standard.
This is on page 131 of the CO, sections 8.2.2 and 8.2.3

According to the standard, thú is used when the object of a verb or when in the second part of a copula structure ("aithním thú" "mo náire thú"). Tú is used everywhere else.


Confirmed? ;)
Well, tú as object of a verbal noun counts as "everywhere else", doesn't it? :)

It is more interesting to read what is not written than what is actually written:
E.g. There are examples for "í a phógadh" or "iad a cheannach" (8.2.4.) but no examples for "tú/thú a phógadh". Cad ina thaobh?


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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov 2017 8:56 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:

It is more interesting to read what is not written than what is actually written:
E.g. There are examples for "í a phógadh" or "iad a cheannach" (8.2.4.) but no examples for "tú/thú a phógadh". Cad ina thaobh?



Going into a little rant about the Caighdeán and this, I've found it very interesting. For instance, in the possessive section, I didn't see any mention of cuid and how to use it apart from emphasis. However, on my (admittedly brief) perusal through the text, it was used where necessary. Shame they didn't mention it and you still get people who deny that it's needed and thus ruin a fun aspect of Irish in favour of making it more English-like.


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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2017 4:38 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Confirmed? ;)
Well, tú as object of a verbal noun counts as "everywhere else", doesn't it? :)

It is more interesting to read what is not written than what is actually written:
E.g. There are examples for "í a phógadh" or "iad a cheannach" (8.2.4.) but no examples for "tú/thú a phógadh". Cad ina thaobh?


A Dhia, how can we ever know?!?!?!?!!?!

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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2017 4:41 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Well, tú as object of a verbal noun counts as "everywhere else", doesn't it? :)


Until now I thought you were claiming that tú was used in all situations. I was thinking you were crazy. Now I finally understand that you are drawing a distinction between verbs and verbal nouns. I had never even considered this before. Suddenly what was so simple and clear is complicated and difficult.

Ní hionadh ar bith é. Sin an chaoi a bhíonns an Ghaeilge i gcónái.

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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2017 4:52 pm 
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In Ó Dónaill I found one example with thú:
Ní féidir thú a athdhéanamh
http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/athdhéan

I found about a hundred of:
tú féin a choimhéad
tú féin a chur i gcruachás
tú féin a shárú
etc. etc.
But I found no examples of just "tú a X" without the "féin"

In de Bhaldraithe I found three examples with thú:
is é mo dhualgas thú a chur ar d'aireachas
liosta ba mhaith linn thú a scrúdú
tá sé in acmhainn thú a threascairt"

I found four examples with tú:
níor mhaith liom tú a choimeád déanach
is é an eorna nua tú a fheiceáil arís
níl a dhath le tú a choimeád ón bpost
is ionadh liom tú a fheiceáil anseo

Again there were dozens of entries with "tú féin a ghléasadh, tú féin a únfairt, etc. etc."



In conclusion -- usage seems mixed (based on a very small sample size)

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 Post subject: Re: I desire...
PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2017 5:45 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
In conclusion -- usage seems mixed (based on a very small sample size)


Yes, it is.
So it is hard to standardize or define clear rules.
Maybe that's why it is not mentioned in CO or GGBC. "Usage is mixed" is a statement grammarians probably don't like. ;)


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