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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 1:51 pm 
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Conas a tá sibh.

I want to include píosa Gaeilge i mo speech.

Ní bhíonn aon fadbh agam le pronunciation ach níl on muinín agam.

An sliocht I want to say is:

"I fell in love with you. I am in love with you still. I will love you until the whole world turns to dust"

Tugann Google Translate:

"Thit mé i ngrá leat. Tá mé i ngrá leat go fóill. Beidh mé grá agat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh."

I would say:

""Thit mé i ngrá leat. Anois, tá mé i ngrá leat. Beidh mé in ngrá leat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh.""

agus sin an bit where I am having the problems.

Any help appreciated; wedding tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 2:31 pm 
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Jippo wrote:
Conas a tá sibh.

I want to include píosa Gaeilge i mo speech.

Ní bhíonn aon fadbh agam le pronunciation ach níl on muinín agam.

An sliocht I want to say is:

"I fell in love with you. I am in love with you still. I will love you until the whole world turns to dust"

Tugann Google Translate:

"Thit mé i ngrá leat. Tá mé i ngrá leat go fóill. Beidh mé grá agat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh."

I would say:

""Thit mé i ngrá leat. Anois, tá mé i ngrá leat. Beidh mé in ngrá leat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh.""

agus sin an bit where I am having the problems.

Any help appreciated; wedding tomorrow.


B’fhéidir:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dtí go rachaidh an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.

or shorter:
... go ndéana deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dté an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 4:20 pm 
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Posts: 920
Labhrás wrote:
Jippo wrote:
Conas a tá sibh.

I want to include píosa Gaeilge i mo speech.

Ní bhíonn aon fadbh agam le pronunciation ach níl on muinín agam.

An sliocht I want to say is:

"I fell in love with you. I am in love with you still. I will love you until the whole world turns to dust"

Tugann Google Translate:

"Thit mé i ngrá leat. Tá mé i ngrá leat go fóill. Beidh mé grá agat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh."

I would say:

""Thit mé i ngrá leat. Anois, tá mé i ngrá leat. Beidh mé in ngrá leat go dtí go casadh an domhan ar fad a deannaigh.""

agus sin an bit where I am having the problems.

Any help appreciated; wedding tomorrow.


B’fhéidir:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dtí go rachaidh an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.

or shorter:
... go ndéana deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dté an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.


Why not "...go dtí go ndéanfaí..." for the first one? I think that's the closest the the original, though of course, all your suggestions are viable.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 4:59 pm 
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Posts: 728
Gumbi wrote:
Labhrás wrote:

B’fhéidir:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dtí go rachaidh an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.

or shorter:
... go ndéana deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dté an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.


Why not "...go dtí go ndéanfaí..." for the first one? I think that's the closest the the original, though of course, all your suggestions are viable.


literally:
go dtí go ndéanfaí deannach den domhan
= until one would make dust from the world
go dtí go ndéanfar deannach den domhan
= until one will make dust from the world
go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan
= until the world will become dust

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any "one" ;)


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 5:50 pm 
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Posts: 920
Labhrás wrote:
Gumbi wrote:
Labhrás wrote:

B’fhéidir:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dtí go rachaidh an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.

or shorter:
... go ndéana deannach den domhan ar fad.
... go dté an domhan ar fad i riocht deannaigh.


Why not "...go dtí go ndéanfaí..." for the first one? I think that's the closest the the original, though of course, all your suggestions are viable.


literally:
go dtí go ndéanfaí deannach den domhan
= until one would make dust from the world
go dtí go ndéanfar deannach den domhan
= until one will make dust from the world
go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan
= until the world will become dust

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any "one" ;)

Ok, this is interesting now that I'm thinking about it. Because I'm aware "go ndéanfaí" implies a "one" (ie "some" one). But are you sure it's not OK to use here? Does it always have to imply an actual person, or can it mean a causal agent or something (in the context of the phrase "deannach a dhéanamh de rud éigin")?

Isn't "go ndéanfaí" used in contexts where the "one" is not specified? For example, the first result from potafocal

Ní bhíonn trialacha rúnda i gceist ach amháin nuair a bhíonn na daoine atá i gcumhacht ag iarraidh go ndéanfaí na cosantóirí a chiontú go cinnte

"...that the defendants would be convicted..." (without specifications as to the means).

Am I making any sense here? I could be completely missing the mark :bash:


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jul 2017 6:48 pm 
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Posts: 728
Gumbi wrote:
Ok, this is interesting now that I'm thinking about it. Because I'm aware "go ndéanfaí" implies a "one" (ie "some" one). But are you sure it's not OK to use here? Does it always have to imply an actual person, or can it mean a causal agent or something (in the context of the phrase "deannach a dhéanamh de rud éigin")?


A good question, perhaps answerable only by native speakers.
Often Irish autonomous form is used indiscriminately for English passive - but it is different.
In German, there's the pronoun "man" as a kind of "autonomous form". And we have a passive, too.
But I probably wouldn't normally say "... bis dass man Staub aus der Erde macht" because the sentence is active and "man" - though opaque - is some kind of person(s): e.g. the human race, the next Hitler, the evil extraterrestrians or God.
But on the other side often there's no difference in meaning between "man" and passive voice and both forms could be used because the agent is without any significance and obviously human:
Man baute das Haus 1817. / Das Haus wurde 1817 gebaut. = Tógadh an teach sa bhliain 1817. / Bhí an teach á thógáil sa bhliain 1817.
In German, I could optionally use both, in Irish I'd definitely choose the autonomous form - because Irish passive is rather cumbersome and too specific: It is past passive progressive, not just past passive.

But here the original English form was "until the whole world turns to dust"
I think "go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan uilig" is the best choice.
Even in English, there's no passive but active: "the world turns ..." and so is Irish: "déanfaidh deannach ...".


Quote:
Isn't "go ndéanfaí" used in contexts where the "one" is not specified? For example, the first result from potafocal

Ní bhíonn trialacha rúnda i gceist ach amháin nuair a bhíonn na daoine atá i gcumhacht ag iarraidh go ndéanfaí na cosantóirí a chiontú go cinnte

"...that the defendants would be convicted..." (without specifications as to the means).


Convicted by (complacent) judges/juries, wouldn't they?


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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 4:26 pm 
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Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
Labhrás wrote:
literally:
go dtí go ndéanfaí deannach den domhan
= until one would make dust from the world

I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any "one" ;)


A Labhráis, your comparison with German is interesting but I am skeptical that Irish could be similar to German in this respect. I think in this instance the Irish is different from both the German and the English. I believe it is called a "saorbhriathar" because the verb is 'free' from any actor. There is not any "one" doing it; it is simply a free action.

Labhrás wrote:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.


To my understanding this sentence is impossible. It is my understanding that it is forbidden to have a verb without a subject [with the obvious exception of saorbhriathair], and your verb "déanfaidh" here is without a subject.

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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 7:08 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
... go dtí go ndéanfaidh deannach den domhan ar fad.


To my understanding this sentence is impossible. It is my understanding that it is forbidden to have a verb without a subject [with the obvious exception of saorbhriathair], and your verb "déanfaidh" here is without a subject.


This is a frequent Irish idiom. It must be possible. ;)
It is called "impersonal use" in FGB, though I'd rather think deannach is here the subject of an intransitivized verb "déan", now meaning "become", though something doesn't turn "into" but "from" something else in Irish: Rinne bean di. = She became a woman, lit. "A woman made from her". Féach: http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/déan_de.

Dála an scéil, there are a lot of idioms in Irish without an overt subject,
e.g. D’éirigh idir na fir. = The men quarrelled.


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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 7:51 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
[i] Rinne bean di. = She became a woman, lit. "A woman made from her".

Very interesting. I always learn something from you, a Labhráis!

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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 7:54 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:


Actually I have looked at the link. All of the examples could be seen as having no subject, but I think it is likely not a coincidence that these are all forms that traditionally and in Munster include the third person. You know what I mean?

So is it really a lack of a subject? Or is it just an older verb form?

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