It is currently Wed 23 Aug 2017 9:10 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul 2017 11:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 649
Cúmhaí wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
No, lenition according to this impression would only be a phonological phenomenon, a kind of sandhi.

Labhrás wrote:
Adverbs often block declension and so of course they block lenition as well.

Hmmm... these seem a bit contradictory. I realize it isn't just sandhi anymore, but why do adverbs block then?


:dhera:

In German I could say "eine Frau, ziemlich groß, kam herein" (a quite big woman came in) but not "eine Frau, groß, kam herein".
(normal order: "eine ziemlich große Frau ..." / "eine große Frau ... ")
"Ziemlich groß" is felt here as a clause-like addition with a predicative adjective ("eine Frau, (die) ziemlich groß (war), kam herein").
Perhaps it is similar in Irish: bean (a bhí) reasúnta mór a tháinig isteach

Cúmhaí wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
Often even so if lenition would be avoided phonologically, e.g. it is "an bhean dheas" in Standard Irish (and Connacht at least), though the sequence -n d- should normally hinder lenition.

Is that really standard? Yuck. Don't tell me an bhean dhúthrachtach is correct, is it?
I thought the dntls rule was a sandhi rule holy above all other grammar.


Yes, of course, it is standard, and Ulster Irish, féach:

Pádraig Ó Baoighill in Ceann Tìre/Earraghàidheal Ár gComharsanaigh Gaelacha wrote:
Bhí an bhean dhúthrachtach seo réidh le braon tae a dhéanamh domh ach bhí an bád ag tarraingt ar an chéidh agus mheas mé go raibh go leor dá cuid ama tugtha aici domh cheana féin.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul 2017 8:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 07 Feb 2015 11:24 am
Posts: 311
Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
Labhrás wrote:
In German I could say "eine Frau, ziemlich groß, kam herein" (a quite big woman came in) but not "eine Frau, groß, kam herein".
(normal order: "eine ziemlich große Frau ..." / "eine große Frau ... ")
"Ziemlich groß" is felt here as a clause-like addition with a predicative adjective ("eine Frau, (die) ziemlich groß (war), kam herein").
Perhaps it is similar in Irish: bean (a bhí) reasúnta mór a tháinig isteach

Interesting. As an aside, could you perhaps explain to me why sometimes ar lenites and sometimes it doesn't?

Labhrás wrote:
Yes, of course, it is standard, and Ulster Irish, féach:

So is adjective agreement the only place this rule is violated, or are there others?
One thing I commonly hear is the rule broken after an- meaning "very." I was always confident that was just wrong. Was I mistaken?

_________________
ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul 2017 10:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 649
Cúmhaí wrote:
Interesting. As an aside, could you perhaps explain to me why sometimes ar lenites and sometimes it doesn't?


I like comparisons with German. :)
You could say phrases in German as "auf Provision", "auf Kaution", "auf See", etc., i.e. the preposition "auf" (= ar) used only with a noun without any article (and so usually without any trace of case marking)
In the same situations "ar" doesn't lenite in Irish: ar cíos, ar muir (as FGB calls it: "In references of a general nature it does not normally affect initial letter of following noun")

But this is not an explanation, just another example in a different language.
The explanation is perhaps, that the noun is "absolute" and generalized without lenition in Irish (and without a definite or indefinite article in German).
There is actually a three-part distinction in German and English: sea, a sea, the sea.
But Irish lacks an indefinite article, so the distinction is normally only two-part: muir, an mhuir.
But after the prepositions "ar" and "thar" a trace of a three-part distinction is visible: ar muir = auf See, ar mhuir = auf einer See, ar an muir = auf der See.

Cúmhaí wrote:
So is adjective agreement the only place this rule is violated, or are there others?
One thing I commonly hear is the rule broken after an- meaning "very." I was always confident that was just wrong. Was I mistaken?


e.g. an-dheas?
It occurs, not often, but often enough even by native speakers.
In written Irish it is more often by Munster authors, perhaps because they actually say "ana-dheas" but write in standardized spelling "an-dheas".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 26 Jul 2017 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 07 Feb 2015 11:24 am
Posts: 311
Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
Labhrás wrote:
ar muir = auf See, ar mhuir = auf einer See, ar an muir = auf der See.

This is perfect! Thanks!


Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
So is adjective agreement the only place this rule is violated, or are there others?
One thing I commonly hear is the rule broken after an- meaning "very." I was always confident that was just wrong. Was I mistaken?


e.g. an-dheas?
It occurs, not often, but often enough even by native speakers.
In written Irish it is more often by Munster authors, perhaps because they actually say "ana-dheas" but write in standardized spelling "an-dheas".

I realize that it "occurs" haha I am wondering if it is correct or not, in particular in according to the standard.
Do you think that an educated native speaker (aka a level 5 in the American system) would consider it correct?

_________________
ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul 2017 1:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 649
Cúmhaí wrote:
I realize that it "occurs" haha I am wondering if it is correct or not, in particular in according to the standard.
Do you think that an educated native speaker (aka a level 5 in the American system) would consider it correct?


"An-dheas" is wrong (totally and inacceptably ;)). I wouldn't say so for "ana-dheas".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul 2017 3:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 07 Feb 2015 11:24 am
Posts: 311
Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
Labhrás wrote:
"An-dheas" is wrong (totally and inacceptably ;)). I wouldn't say so for "ana-dheas".


:good: SeemsGood

_________________
ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group