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 Post subject: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Thu 24 Dec 2015 1:03 am 
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Hey I haven't asked anything for a while, I hope all are well

Could someone explain the difference between these phrases?

An áit a bhfuilim i mo sheasamh
An áit atáim i mo sheasamh

Cathain a rinne tú...
Cathain a ndearna tú...

I can't tell what is going on when I run into these different forms

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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Thu 24 Dec 2015 1:15 am 
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Yay! This is one of my favorite subjects: direct and indirect relative clauses.


So, as far as I know, only one of the two is valid in each sentence, depending on what the preceding word/phrase is. If the preceding bit is the subject or direct object of the second phrase, you use the direct relative clause, which is the one with the independent form of the verb (tá, rinne, bhí). Otherwise (generally when it's an adjectival structure) you use the indirect relative clause, which requires the dependent form of the verb (fuil, raibh, dearna).

So, to start with the second one:

Cathain requires the direct relative clause (see here), so you use the independent form:

Cathain a rinne tú.

However, an áit requires the indirect (Where is the place in which you are standing), so you need to use the dependent form, as well as the preposition - An áit ina bhfuil mé i mo sheasamh or An áit a bhfuil mé i mo sheasan ann)

I suggest looking through these pages: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/satz4.ht ... elativsatz

And asking if you have any more question


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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Thu 24 Dec 2015 8:32 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
However, an áit requires the indirect (Where is the place in which you are standing), so you need to use the dependent form, as well as the preposition - An áit ina bhfuil mé i mo sheasamh or An áit a bhfuil mé i mo sheasamh ann)


In this case no preposition is necessary (it is usally omitted).
an áit a bhfuil mé i mo sheasamh = the place where I am standing

Nouns like dóigh, áit, fáth, treo, am (generally referring to manner, place, cause, direction, time) usually require such an indirect relative clause.
Relative adverbs like how, where, why, whither, when could be used in English in such cases.

(But if there isn’t such an adverbial relation a direct relative clause is necessary, e.g.
an áit a chonaic mé inné = the place that I saw yesterday. )

Conas, cathain and similar question words etymologically contain nouns matching those criteria, too.
(cá + ionnas = what manner, cá + tan = what time).
So, sometimes indirect relative clauses are used though direct relative clauses are more common here.


Last edited by Labhrás on Thu 24 Dec 2015 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Thu 24 Dec 2015 2:22 pm 
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Hmm, today I learned. I always learned that the preposition was necessary - i.e. An bord ar ar luaigh an forc; an bord ar luaigh an forc air but not an bord ar luaigh an forc


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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Thu 24 Dec 2015 6:37 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Hmm, today I learned. I always learned that the preposition was necessary - i.e. An bord ar ar luaigh an forc; an bord ar luaigh an forc air but not an bord ar luaigh an forc


Yes, in this case a preposition is necessary.

But not in the case of nouns like dóigh, áit, fáth, treo, am (nouns referring generally to manner, place, cause, direction, time).
That’s called "riail DÁFTA" sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Fri 25 Dec 2015 1:54 am 
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Thanks guys. I have another question, too.

When does the word "déag" take séimhiú?

I have seen "a dó dhéag" "an naoú lá dhéag" "dhá bhabhla dhéag" and others

I have absolutely no idea why it is sometimes lenited but usually not.

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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Fri 25 Dec 2015 12:10 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
Thanks guys. I have another question, too.

When does the word "déag" take séimhiú?

I have seen "a dó dhéag" "an naoú lá dhéag" "dhá bhabhla dhéag" and others

I have absolutely no idea why it is sometimes lenited but usually not.


Lenition of déag after:
- dó: a dó dhéag (compare: a trí déag)
- nouns in singular ending in a vowel: trí lá dhéag (compare: trí bliana déag)
- nouns in plural ending in slender consonant: dhá uain dhéag (except cinn: trí cinn déag)


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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Fri 25 Dec 2015 11:30 pm 
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Go raibh maith agat, a Labhráis

That looks similar to when the forms of the pronoun 'do' are lenited, or am I wrong? Are they the same? Are these correct?

Thug mé babhla dhuit
but
Níor thug mé na babhlaí duit

and

Cheannaíomar rothair dhóibh
but
Níor cheannaíomar sicín dóibh

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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Sat 26 Dec 2015 12:18 am 
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This goes back to a question I asked almost a year ago. Lawrence and others told explained to me that it should be "An é seo an chógaslann?" instead of "An í seo an chógaslann?" because buildings when unknown were assumed masculine.

I just wanted to confirm, then, that this would be correct:

An í seo do dheirfiúr?

I'm assuming women are assumed feminine gender, right?
What about cats?

An í seo do chat? or An é seo do chat?

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 Post subject: Re: Grammar Question
PostPosted: Sat 26 Dec 2015 5:09 am 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
Go raibh maith agat, a Labhráis

That looks similar to when the forms of the pronoun 'do' are lenited, or am I wrong? Are they the same? Are these correct?

Thug mé babhla dhuit
but
Níor thug mé na babhlaí duit

and

Cheannaíomar rothair dhóibh
but
Níor cheannaíomar sicín dóibh


Generally the dialects that use lenited forms of the preposition do do so in all forms, as far as I'm aware. So if they use dhuit in the positive, they'll use it in the negative.

Also, do here is a preposition (or prepositional pronoun when inflected)

Quote:
What about cats?


You go with the gender of the noun. Since cat is masculine, you'd use é


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