It is currently Sun 27 Sep 2020 9:08 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Words of French Origin
PostPosted: Tue 10 Nov 2015 9:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm
Posts: 466
Any of ye know any other words which are of French origin apart from the obvious

Garsún , Francach, francach agus pardún

_________________
Bíonn rudaí maithe mall


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 10 Nov 2015 9:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1521
Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
Any of ye know any other words which are of French origin apart from the obvious

Garsún , Francach, francach agus pardún


I can think of a few:

seomra

As well as all the words ending in -áiste:

páiste
oráiste
pasáiste

etc...

I think O'Rahilly has argued in Irish Dialects Past and Present that the Munster Irish phenomenon of putting the stress on the second syllable comes from French influence. However, this is still disputed.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov 2015 1:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue 23 Apr 2013 11:47 am
Posts: 349
Location: Imeall Chathair Ghríobháin
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

I think O'Rahilly has argued in Irish Dialects Past and Present that the Munster Irish phenomenon of putting the stress on the second syllable comes from French influence. However, this is still disputed.

Cian


That sounds like a load of bolleaux to me :darklaugh:

But I would think that most "romantic" loanwords would have come into Irish through Latin, eaglais, sagart, would be the most obvious. I don't doubt that the Normans brought words with them but I'm not sure how French their dialect would have been or if it would have been widespread outside the Pale.
Interesting is that the Normans are supposed to have introduced the rabbit to Ireland, but the Irish word for rabbit is coinín, which has more in common with the Germanic words kanin, kaninchen, konein, or the English (Saxon?) coney. You would normally expect a foreign borrowing for something that didn't already exist in the base language.
It would be really interesting to get hold of a well researched Irish etymological dictionary.
Sorry I'm burbling.... :guiness:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov 2015 6:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 171
MacBoo wrote:
But I would think that most "romantic" loanwords would have come into Irish through Latin, eaglais, sagart, would be the most obvious. I don't doubt that the Normans brought words with them but I'm not sure how French their dialect would have been or if it would have been widespread outside the Pale.

There was significant Norman settlement outside of the Pale. The frequency of Norman surnames in all counties of Ireland should give one an idea of how widespread their distribution was.

Speaking of surnames, quite a few occupation terms derive ultimately from Norman-French, e.g. báille, buitléir, búistéir, cuitléir, seansailéir. Since the Normans also introduced a new form of castle construction to both England and Ireland, I would expect a lot of the terminology to originate with them as well, e.g. caiseal, cúirt, móta , pailis. Although with some of these terms, it's difficult to say whether they came from French directly or through the mediation of English.

Of course, the Normans may be something of a red herring anyway given that most English borrowings from French came centuries after their descendants had ceased to speak the language. Members of the Irish nobility would've learned French in much the same way that their English and Scottish counterparts did, and there's no reason to think borrowings wouldn't've trickled down from their speech to the speech of the peasants the same way they did elsewhere in Europe.

MacBoo wrote:
Interesting is that the Normans are supposed to have introduced the rabbit to Ireland, but the Irish word for rabbit is coinín, which has more in common with the Germanic words kanin, kaninchen, konein, or the English (Saxon?) coney. You would normally expect a foreign borrowing for something that didn't already exist in the base language.

Um...don't know how to break it to you, but every one of these forms represents a reflex of Latin cuniculus. German Kaninchen[*], for instance, derives from Old French connin with a native diminutive suffix (-chen). Coney is probably a back-formation from Norman French conis, plural of conil, a variant of con(n)in.

Do earlier forms of Germanic actually differentiate rabbits from hares or do they indiscriminately refer to both with reflexes of Common Teutonic *hasô (source of English hare, German Hase)? If there is a native Germanic lexeme for "rabbit" specifically, then I can't say I've ever come across it anywhere.


[*] The penultimate stress is a dead giveaway here (strong initial root stress is characteristic of Germanic), as is the lack of umlaut.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov 2015 6:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 23 Apr 2013 11:47 am
Posts: 349
Location: Imeall Chathair Ghríobháin
Domhnaillín Breac wrote:
.....don't know how to break it to you.....


In a strident tone from a great height. :darklaugh:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 12 Nov 2015 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm
Posts: 466
AS far as I am aware the Normans spoke a variety of French, they had long abandoned their ancestors Norse language by the time the got to Ireland. In much the same way they quickly adopted Gaelic here over Norman French.

There are many familys in the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht with Norman surnames.

Also I dont think they concentrated in the Pale in any great numbers, but spread out throughout Ireland, which probably aided their assimilation to Gaelic culture. As there was not enough of them in any one area to create a stable Norman French speaking population.

_________________
Bíonn rudaí maithe mall


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov 2015 10:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1521
MacBoo wrote:
That sounds like a load of bolleaux to me :darklaugh:


:darklaugh:

MacBoo wrote:
But I would think that most "romantic" loanwords would have come into Irish through Latin, eaglais, sagart, would be the most obvious.


:yes:

MacBoo wrote:
I don't doubt that the Normans brought words with them but I'm not sure how French their dialect would have been or if it would have been widespread outside the Pale.


The Normans spread throughout Ireland they were extremely prominent in Munster, Fitzgeralds in east Cork, Ferriters in Corca Dhuibhne etc...

MacBoo wrote:
Interesting is that the Normans are supposed to have introduced the rabbit to Ireland, but the Irish word for rabbit is coinín, which has more in common with the Germanic words kanin, kaninchen, konein, or the English (Saxon?) coney. You would normally expect a foreign borrowing for something that didn't already exist in the base language.


While the Normans may have been French speaking that doesn't mean that remnants of the Norse language didn't exist.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 13 Nov 2015 10:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 9:55 am
Posts: 1996
Location: 91 - France
I remember doing a whole list of them - at the other place. It's not always easy knowing what came from Latin or from Norman French (which is still spoken in the Channel Islands and in the Cotentin - speakers of the Official Standard French, such as myself, can't understand it). - Chapelle (I imagine the Welsh word capel comes directly from Latin), Jehan, oeuf, blancmanger (plámás), chaussée, bailli, taureau, église... - perhaps sagart comes from sacerdoce or from Latin.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov 2015 1:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 1522
I checked several dictionaries, and rabbit appears to be one of those words with obscure etymological origins, so perhaps it's one of the many words which appear to have come into the Germanic languages from a pre-Indo-European substrate. There is a related word in Dutch, which I think is rubbe, so it probably also existed in other Germanic languages at some point.

_________________
I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov 2015 1:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2399
Quote:
I remember doing a whole list of them - at the other place. It's not always easy knowing what came from Latin or from Norman French (which is still spoken in the Channel Islands and in the Cotentin - speakers of the Official Standard French, such as myself, can't understand it). - Chapelle (I imagine the Welsh word capel comes directly from Latin), Jehan, oeuf, blancmanger (plámás), chaussée, bailli, taureau, église... - perhaps sagart comes from sacerdoce or from Latin.


u(i)bh doesn't come from French, it's Indo-European.
tarbh is a Celtic word, it doesn't come from French (see Welsh tarw, Gaelic tarbh, Gaulish taruos...)
eaglais comes from Latin ecclesia
sagart comes from Latin sacerdos

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Khookfg and 137 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group