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PostPosted: Mon 30 Dec 2013 8:20 pm 
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Jab maith atá ar an leabhar!

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Dec 2013 8:23 pm 
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Gealt wrote:
Gabhaíg mo leithscéal má thá seo san áit mhícheart ach níorbh fhéidir liom teachtaireacht phríobháideach a chur.

p. 6 of this forum, re "Ná bodhair mise"
An Lon Dubh wrote:
I've never heard the word used in that sense (the "haunting" sense, I've heard the "bothering" and "deafening" senses). Dineen doesn't have it or Ó Dónaill, however some older dictionaries (Early Modern Irish) mention bodhair as haunting. Where have you heard it? I'm always interested in words not to be found in the two dictionaries. There's a good few Early Modern words that I've heard being used that aren't in Dineen.


Just wondering what Early Modern Irish dictionary/ies you are referring to and where to access them? Are they in print or online? And if (you remember that) you were talking about specific ones here, are there also others you also know of?

GRMA roimh ré!


Thá'n focalóir Gaoidhilge-Sax-Bhéarla; John O'Brien, Edward Lhuyd do sgríg, ar fáilt annso:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=59oqAAA ... &q&f=false

nú annso:

https://archive.org/details/focalirgaoidhil01brigoog

Dh'Fhoilsíog é i 1768.

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Mon 07 Nov 2016 11:18 pm 
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OK, reviving another subject, with my own questions. :P

In caibideal a ceathair Gobnait says: Caithfead féin sgéal a dh’innsint dóibh.

Why is it a dh’innsint and not a innsint, what is the purpose of d’ in this context?

This is a in a prepositional meaning (also 4th definition in FGB), right? So, in modern Irish, it should cause lenition of a consonant, but do nothing to a vowel (scéal a insint) – in older texts (also in Sliabh na mBan bhFionn AFAIR) it is written do (é do dhéanamh, scéal d’insint?). Is this a dh’ before vowel contamination of those two? Is (was?) it common in Cork Irish?

Also, later, Peig says about Séadna: Is dócha nár chuid ba lúgha ’ná a fhonn a bhí ar Shéadna an rud ceudna do rádh leis. What is the literal translation (I have a difficulty with understanding the part in bold). ‘Probably it wasn’t the least part of his wish¹, that Séadna had, the same thing to tell him’ would be my best try, with intended meaning of ‘I guess it was a pretty big part of his wishes at that moment, to tell him the very same thing’. Am I close?

¹ wishes? Wiktionary and FGB suggest that fonn does not have plural, but sg.gen. is foinn, so it looks like gen.pl… The ’ná a fhonn part troubles me. Is it in the meaning ‘that is’? Would it then be ‘it wasn’t the least thing, ie. his wish, that he had/was thinking about, the same thing…’?

EDIT: or ‘it wasn’t less than his wish’, ‘he at least had a desire…’, with meaning ‘than’ would make more sense?


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PostPosted: Tue 08 Nov 2016 1:05 am 
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silmeth wrote:
OK, reviving another subject, with my own questions. :P

In caibideal a ceathair Gobnait says: Caithfead féin sgéal a dh’innsint dóibh.

Why is it a dh’innsint and not a innsint, what is the purpose of d’ in this context?

This is a in a prepositional meaning (also 4th definition in FGB), right? So, in modern Irish, it should cause lenition of a consonant, but do nothing to a vowel (scéal a insint) – in older texts (also in Sliabh na mBan bhFionn AFAIR) it is written do (é do dhéanamh, scéal d’insint?). Is this a dh’ before vowel contamination of those two? Is (was?) it common in Cork Irish?


Yes, it’s the usual form in Munster Irish, at least in Dingle.
a dh’ before verbal nouns beginning with a vowel.

silmeth wrote:
Also, later, Peig says about Séadna: Is dócha nár chuid ba lúgha ’ná a fhonn a bhí ar Shéadna an rud ceudna do rádh leis. What is the literal translation (I have a difficulty with understanding the part in bold). ‘Probably it wasn’t the least part of his wish¹, that Séadna had, the same thing to tell him’ would be my best try, with intended meaning of ‘I guess it was a pretty big part of his wishes at that moment, to tell him the very same thing’. Am I close?

¹ wishes? Wiktionary and FGB suggest that fonn does not have plural, but sg.gen. is foinn, so it looks like gen.pl… The ’ná a fhonn part troubles me. Is it in the meaning ‘that is’? Would it then be ‘it wasn’t the least thing, ie. his wish, that he had/was thinking about, the same thing…’?

EDIT: or ‘it wasn’t less than his wish’, ‘he at least had a desire…’, with meaning ‘than’ would make more sense?


Yes
nár chuid ba lú ná a fhonn = it wasn't (a part) less than his wish. (the same idiom as in German: Es war nicht weniger als sein Wunsch ...) ~ it was his very wish

Old spelling ’ná with apostrophe means always "than" (’ná < ioná)


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PostPosted: Sat 10 Feb 2018 10:54 pm 
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One more question about a sentence from caibideal a ceathair. When Séadna looks at the horses on the market: bhí sé ag teip air glan a aigne do shocarughadh ar an gceann a thaithneóchadh leis.

I am not sure how to understand glan there. Does it mean that Séadna ‘failed to decide, make up his mind’ (a aigne a shocrú) so that it would be ‘definite, unambiguous’ (aigne glan)? Or is it used as an adverb – ‘unambiguously decide, make up his mind’ (if so – why not go glan)? Or is it somehow working as a verb (‘to clean’) here?

And another minor question – about bhí sé ag teip air – what does refer to? Is it a general it (it was failing Séadna)? I would think so basing from FGB example Theip orm é a dhéanamh, I failed to do it. Could this example be also written as theip sé orm é a dhéanamh, or theipeas orm é a dhéanamh (that’d be the case if refers to Séadna himself), or neither would be good and the sentence in the book is confusing the sentence subject (and should be just bhí ag teip air with no )?


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PostPosted: Sun 11 Feb 2018 10:04 am 
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silmeth wrote:
One more question about a sentence from caibideal a ceathair. When Séadna looks at the horses on the market: bhí sé ag teip air glan a aigne do shocarughadh ar an gceann a thaithneóchadh leis.

I am not sure how to understand glan there. Does it mean that Séadna ‘failed to decide, make up his mind’ (a aigne a shocrú) so that it would be ‘definite, unambiguous’ (aigne glan)? Or is it used as an adverb – ‘unambiguously decide, make up his mind’ (if so – why not go glan)? Or is it somehow working as a verb (‘to clean’) here?


It could be an adverb ("completely". Glan as an adverb is usually without "go") But I doubt this here.
Rather it is a noun (glan a aigne "cleanness of his mind").

silmeth wrote:
And another minor question – about bhí sé ag teip air – what does refer to? Is it a general it (it was failing Séadna)? I would think so basing from FGB example Theip orm é a dhéanamh, I failed to do it. Could this example be also written as theip sé orm é a dhéanamh, or theipeas orm é a dhéanamh (that’d be the case if refers to Séadna himself), or neither would be good and the sentence in the book is confusing the sentence subject (and should be just bhí ag teip air with no )?


Bhí (sé) ag teip air glan a aigne a shocrú.
Sé is superfluous here.
Verbs like "teip ar" are without a grammatical subject. So in progressive tenses it is usually "Tá ag teip air" or in past "Bhí ag teip air", so that the auxillary verb bí is without subject.
Everything following "ar" is the logical subject (or: the only complement of such verbs)
You can't use "Theip sé air" or so.

But "bhí ag ..." might be felt awkward, so something is inserted.
And in case a verbal noun phrase follows (like "glan a aigne a schocrú") this might be felt as the subject (though it probably isn't) and "sé" could refer to it.


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PostPosted: Sun 11 Feb 2018 10:47 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
It could be an adverb ("completely". Glan as an adverb is usually without "go") But I doubt this here.
Rather it is a noun (glan a aigne "cleanness of his mind").


Thanks! That makes perfect sense, I don’t know how I failed to figure that one out. :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun 11 Feb 2018 12:19 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
It could be an adverb ("completely". Glan as an adverb is usually without "go") But I doubt this here.
Rather it is a noun (glan a aigne "cleanness of his mind").


Thanks! That makes perfect sense, I don’t know how I failed to figure that one out. :oops:


"He was completely failing to make his mind up/he was quite unable to decide..."

(This might well be the first time I've had to disagree with Labhrás :D)


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PostPosted: Sun 18 Feb 2018 8:55 pm 
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An extract from the book featuring that particular scene was used in the 'léamhthuiscint' part of an Irish language exam set by 'Institúid Oideachais Marino' (Dublin) in 2015. Modern spelling of course - including ''Séanna' for 'Séadna'. And: 'bhí ag teip air glan a aigne a shocrú' - without 'sé'.

And in the 1915 English version it's translated as 'he utterly failed to settle his mind'.


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