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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan 2013 1:20 am 
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That's right Lughaidh, but there's a lot of snobbery about these things in English. For example, if children say "I do be in school" they are likely to be corrected by a schoolteacher and told to say "I attend school." But the same teacher might say "I do be in school" when talking to friends.


yes because teachers are meant to teach "standard" English at school. The problem is that people tend to consider that everything that's not standard English is simply bad English, which isn't right.

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Do French speakers have the same attitude about dialects?


much worse than that actually. In France, everything that's not standard is also considered as "not French". If you use a word that isn't in "the dictionary", people say "it's not French" (as if all French people were in the common dictionaries! there are loads of technical words that aren't in the common dictionaries, gan trácht ar local words and expressions and even colloquial things). Even speaking standard French with a "non-standard" (ie. non-Parisian) accent is often considered ridiculous, and you would never hear someone with an accent speaking on tv, except for a few exceptions (when they interview people on the street in the south etc). In general, Québécois, Belgian or Swiss or non-Parisian French actors don't play in French movies if they have a non-Parisian accent. They have to speak with a Parisian accent.
It's like if you don't speak standard French with a Parisian accent, then you're a backward peasant (btw among the people who work on tv, many really think that if you're not from Paris you are a backward peasant, there's even a specific word in French to call "the whole part of France that isn't Paris and its area": "la province").
But many "normal French people" find that certain accents (Québec, southern France, and foreign accents...) are cute.

And here we're rather talking about accents only! because most French dialects have disappeared or are only spoken by older people in the countryside, and in general what is left of them is only a local accent with a few local words and that's all. Everything has been done in order to kill all French dialects as well as the regional languages (other languages: Breton, Corsican, Provençal, Basque, Alsatian, etc). Most of them are endangered now.
That's what they call the country of the Rights of Man, the country of the Enlightenment, of equality, etc...

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan 2013 11:35 am 
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The real difficulty in identifying the Gaelicisms in Hiberno-English is that we don't have any substantial documentation on the English of the settlers, so it's hard to say it wasn't local variation within England. But some of the variation still exists in older people's speech in parts of England, such as the Hampshire "I be"/"I am" distinction. (Hampshire is "sailor English" and is charicatured badly as "Pirate English" on the internet.)

Even "do be" is still not definitely Irish, as "do" is already closely associated with Brythonic-influenced English and most of the planted settlers were from the south-east of England, so could have brought in the influence of long-term contact between English and Welsh or Cornish. (In fact, I seem to recall from university that a lot of them came from Plymouth, or perhaps that was specific to the County Clare Hiberno-English that we looked at.)

There's the further complication that linguists used to always talk about language diverging, but it can and does converge too -- even features that existed in the language of the settlers can be argued to be "Irish influenced" if you suggest that they only survived in the local dialect because it was very similar to a feature in the local dialect of Irish.

Even the academics don't agree (and unfortunately I've got rid of my old university English books which quite nicely summarised both sides of the argument).

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan 2013 12:22 pm 
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At least we can say that there is a Gaelicism when in Ireland's English, some expression is exactly like a native Irish expression and when it doesn't exist in England's English :)

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Even "do be" is still not definitely Irish, as "do" is already closely associated with Brythonic-influenced English


well, Brythonic languages don't use the auxiliary verb "to do" to conjugate the verb "to be"... (I don't think you can say "nes i fod" to say "I was", for example) so it's not a direct translation from Welsh or Cornish anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jan 2013 9:57 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
At least we can say that there is a Gaelicism when in Ireland's English, some expression is exactly like a native Irish expression and when it doesn't exist in England's English :)

No you can't, because we can't be sure it didn't previously exist in a now-lost variety.

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Quote:
Even "do be" is still not definitely Irish, as "do" is already closely associated with Brythonic-influenced English


well, Brythonic languages don't use the auxiliary verb "to do" to conjugate the verb "to be"... (I don't think you can say "nes i fod" to say "I was", for example) so it's not a direct translation from Welsh or Cornish anyway.

Yes, but I'd be very surprised if it did in Irish either. So what do we conclude from this?

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