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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2023 11:07 pm 
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Ade wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Ade wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Ade wrote:
Yes, clann can be interpreted as either your own clann, i.e. your descendants, or your mother's clann, i.e., you, your siblings, your own children, and all of their cousins.

Er.. no. This is poor Irish. Clann does not mean your mother's siblings! It only means your offspring.


I never claimed that clann refers to your mother's siblings.

What I said was that, if one were to speak about their mother's clann, that would mean their mother's offspring and their descendants. That would be them, and their siblings, and any children any of them may have. So, if I were to refer to clann mo mháthair, I would be understood to be referring to myself, my siblings, any children of mine, and any nieces or nephews I may have.

clann mo mháthar, yes - the progeny of my mother. But clann agus Éire is just not right - granted it doesn't matter much what some person puts on their arm - I always look away immediately to avoid being dragged into the mud with such people - but Clann agus Éire means "offspring and Ireland". That is just not right. But as I said, it's not as if it matters in this case.


I think clann in a phrase like clann agus Éire is somewhat open ended. It's up to the person getting the tattoo to determine whose offspring are in question. It's not necessary to assume clann refers to his/her own offspring rather than those of some ancestor (as in Clann Uí Fhlatharta).

I also think it's a bit too restrictive to translate it as strictly "offspring" in a case like this. From the earliest writings in Irish you get the word clann with a meaning more similar to "family group", "kin", or indeed, the English loanword "clan". See for example 29d6 from the Würzburg glosses, .i. hóbói mochland et mochenéel "i.e. since my clan and my kindred came into being", or 27a from Dioghluim Dána, fearr beagán cloinne ná clann "a single child can be better than a large family".

My point in bringing up either of the two of these examples here is not to suggest that the translation "offspring" is impossible in either case, but simply that "clan" and "family" were chosen as preferable translations based on the context. In a similar way, I think the context of clann agus Éire is quite clearly one which demands the understanding "family and Ireland" rather than "offspring and Ireland".


No, modern Irish is the key to the meaning, and no native speaker would understand "clann agus Éire". I would suggest feaimilí for "family".


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2023 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Ade wrote:
I think clann in a phrase like clann agus Éire is somewhat open ended. It's up to the person getting the tattoo to determine whose offspring are in question. It's not necessary to assume clann refers to his/her own offspring rather than those of some ancestor (as in Clann Uí Fhlatharta).

I also think it's a bit too restrictive to translate it as strictly "offspring" in a case like this. From the earliest writings in Irish you get the word clann with a meaning more similar to "family group", "kin", or indeed, the English loanword "clan". See for example 29d6 from the Würzburg glosses, .i. hóbói mochland et mochenéel "i.e. since my clan and my kindred came into being", or 27a from Dioghluim Dána, fearr beagán cloinne ná clann "a single child can be better than a large family".

My point in bringing up either of the two of these examples here is not to suggest that the translation "offspring" is impossible in either case, but simply that "clan" and "family" were chosen as preferable translations based on the context. In a similar way, I think the context of clann agus Éire is quite clearly one which demands the understanding "family and Ireland" rather than "offspring and Ireland".


No, modern Irish is the key to the meaning, and no native speaker would understand "clann agus Éire". I would suggest feaimilí for "family".


Dioghluim Dána is Early Modern Irish, but I suspect you are only interested in Irish from the last century or so. Regardless, such uses of the term have never ceased to be acceptable.

Yes, native speakers would absolutely understand what was meant by "clann agus Éire" in the context of a tattoo such as this. As for whether a native speaker would be inclined to get a tattoo like this themselves, perhaps not, though I'd never say "never". I don't know if any of this matters, though, as we were asked to translate what is very clearly an English-language sentiment, based on the English-language concept of the nuclear family unit, into Irish.

Clann is one of a number of options we explained to OP, and we were very clear as to its meaning. If they still want to tattoo it on themselves in the knowledge that it's not a perfect translation for "family", it's not because they've been misled here. Nor have we given them a translation which is unintelligible to native Irish speakers, just one that such speakers may not think is particularly native sounding, primarily because it's not a common sentiment in Irish.

For the record, I think if you want to use a word which is a direct analogue for "family", then feaimilí is a fine option, though I wouldn't have suggested it myself because I think suggesting a translation which clearly utilises a borrowing from English is missing the point of the request for an Irish translation. I also suspect it's just as unlikely a native speaker would tattoo it on themselves as clann agus Éire. Nevertheless, if OP is happy with the béarlachas nature of it, then feaimilí is perfectly sufficient. So too, however, is clann so long as OP understands this would be understood as meaning "children/descendants and Ireland".


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