Breandán wrote:
mejaneh wrote:
To answer some questions, my father's (paternal) ancestors (Harrington/Sullivan) were from the Beara peninsula.
Okay. That's Béarra in West Cork.
That narrows it down alright
, Cork Irish it is then. Even though "Gaedh(e)al" was spelled as "Gaodhal" by some of the Cork scribes (the Murphy scribal family for instance), I would propose using Peadar Ua Laoghaire's
Gaedhal and he also used
tar éis instead of the other variants put forward.
Breandán wrote:
In the interest of working towards a single intelligible translation without all of the options expressed simultaneously (
), perhaps:
Lá breithe sona do’n Ghaedheal-Mheiriceánach is ansa liom tar éis dhó aon bhliadhain déag is cheithre fichid do chuir slán dhe. (in third person)
Lá breithe sona do’n Ghaedheal-Mheiriceánach is ansa liom tar éis dhuit aon bhliadhain déag is cheithre fichid do chuir slán díot. (in second person)
Breandán wrote:
Some questions/notes:
1. I see that the tail end of the message could theoretically be either in the third person or the second. I've presented both above so that they can be compared with each other (rather than mixed together.) (Incidentally, dhuit and díot would be dhuit and dhíot in Cois Fhairrge - is díot not lenited in Munster?).
Connachta Irish lenites duit/díot regardless, Munster Irish is less predictable. Some say that they should only be lenited proceeding a word ending in a vowel and should be uninflected when proceeding a word ending in a consonant. However, this rule is too rigid, its mostly left up to what feels natural for the individual speaker in my opinion. That said "duit" seems to be lenited far more often in phrases than díot in Munster. However, de/do are nearly always lenited when they come towards the end of a sentence so much so that some misrepresented "dhe" as "ghe" and "de" as "
'ge" in northeastern Munster. In this sentence "díot" seems more "natural", for me, here than "dhíot". Although, "dhíot" doesn't seem "unnatural" either.
I think what's making us want to put the sentence in the third person is the use of "do'n"? Either way I think they make sense and I am not too fussed.
Breandán wrote:
3. To say "91 years" traditionally in Cois Fhairrge, they'd say aon bhliain déag is cheithre fichid "eleven years and four score" with aon bhliain déag for "eleven years", even though aon is not usually used when saying "one year, i.e, bliain is fiche "twenty-one years", bliain is cheithre fichid "eighty-one years" versus aon bhliain déag is fiche "thirty-one years", aon bhliain déag is cheithre fichid "ninety-one years".
That also applies to ordinal numbers, i.e., an chéad bhliain is fiche "the twenty-first year", but an t-aonú bliain déag is cheithre fichid "the ninety-first year". Is this different in Munster?
No I don't think its any different in Munster. What's throwing me though is the difference between fichid (dative) and fichead (genetive)
It seems to make more sense to say: aon bhliadhain déag is cheithre fichead as its 4 of 20s is it not? Fichid would definitely make sense if it was bliadhain air* fhichid. Though, "fichid" was my initial and gut reaction and I think I am after thinking about it too much and confused myself. Both seem to be correct from searches online:
http://acts2.oireachtas.ie/framed/1923. ... meset.htmlhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Grai ... ge.djvu/87 (see the cardinals and notes on numerals)
*the réamhfhocal "ar" is written and pronounced as a slender "r" in Munster Irish.
Breandán wrote:
Normally it would be shortened to "91 bliadhain" in writing anyway, wouldn't it, even if pronounced as above?
Yes and no, that way of writing is very modern and is influenced by English. I think its best to write it in the way its said. Though it would save us a load of grief
An Lon Dubh wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Question though should it not be "bliadhain deag is cheithre fichead (i.e the genitive as its follows on after "t'réis? or am I thinking to much into it?
I think that the dhuit/dó blocks the genitive, although I wouldn't bet my house on it. Even without the dó/dhuit I really haven't seen/heard enough long numbers like 91 in genitive position to say this for certain, but I think if you were to put it into the genitive only the actual noun would get inflected, since nouns are still put in the genitive after aon:
Bunanna na haon fhuinneoige dhéag is cheithre fichid The bottom of the 91 windows.
(The article respects the gender of the noun after aon (although not for dhá), dhéag lenited since it is often lenited after vowels.)
I think we should have a version of with numbers above the little guys head!
that's what I thought as well with regards dhuit/dhó blocking the genetive! Why is it that the noun would be put in the genetive only? Isn't 20 considered a noun as well? I have ever only heard of nouns and adjectives having genders in Irish and fiche definitely doesn't seem like an adjective?
MacBoo wrote:
From my part thanks to you all for explaining that about the numbers.
Would the score manner of counting still be in use?
Yes, but it would be only used by the best native speakers of the Gaeltacht. The school system doesn't teach the native way of counting, instead it uses Béarlachas. The "fiche" counting system is common in all the surviving Celtic languages and is especially strong in Scotland but I think its starting to slide there too. You have 3 traditional ways for saying fifty in Irish: you have "caoga" the fiche system and "leathchéad"; now, all we really use is caoga, except, like I said, among the most proficient speakers. likewise, the native way of saying 150 is trí chaogad all we have now, again, really is "céad is caoga" or shortened to "céad caoga". Its a real shame!
Crossed with Lon Dubh, Wefalorie man_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)
Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice
I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)
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