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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar 2015 6:43 pm 
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Munster version, since we're sharing (sharing = caring):

Ár n-Athair atá ar neamh, go naofar t'ainm
Go dtaga do ríocht.
Go ndeintear do thoil ar an dtalamh mar a deintear ar neamh
Ár n-arán ró-shubstaintiúil tabhair dúinn inniubh.
Agus maith dhúinn ár gcionta, mar mhaithimíd-ne do chách a chiontaíonn i n-ár n-aghaidh
Agus ná leog sinn i gcathaíbh; ach saor sinn ó olc.
Amen.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar 2015 7:06 pm 
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Go raibh maith agat :good:


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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar 2015 10:15 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
oirfideach wrote:
Ár nAthair, atá ar neamh,
go naofar d’ainm;
10 go dtaga do ríocht;
go ndéantar do thoil ar an talamh mar a dhéantar ar neamh.
11 Ár n-arán laethúil tabhair dúinn inniu;
12 agus maith dúinn ár bhfiacha, mar a mhaithimidne dár bhféichiúna féin;
13 agus ná lig sinn i gcathú,
ach saor sinn ó olc.


I don't know how far back this translation goes. But I was saying it this way before the 1970 book was published.


That's also the version my grandmother (a native speaker from Mayo) taught us, word for word, and I have seen it printed that way in mass booklets in Ireland. Interestingly, the "d" in "d'ainm" was pronounced with a soft "th" (as in the English word "think"). I've heard that "th" sound in other contexts, mostly in the West, and usually only among older people (my grandmother was born in the 1880's), but I don't know what the geographic spread of it may have been. Have you heard that before, a Bhríd?

That may have been a remnant from Old Irish, for which I've seen this as the Our Father (there may have been variants back then as well, though):

A athair fil hi nimib, noemthar thainm.
Tost do flaithius, did do toil,
i talmain amail ata in nim.
Tabair dun indiu ar sasad lathi. ocus log dun ar fiachu,
amail logmaitne diar fhechemnaib.
Ocus nis lecea sind i n-amus n-dofulachtai, acht ron soer o cech ulc.


The most common Scottish Gaelic version which I've seen also has a "t" sound there, instead of the expected "d":

Ar n-Athair a tha air nèamh, gu'm bu naomh a bios t'ainm.
Gu'n tigeadh do riochachd, gu'n dianar do thoil,
air talamh mar tha's 'ga dianamh air nèamh.
Thoir dhuinn an diugh ar n-aran lathail, agus math dhuinn ar fiachan,
mar a mhathas sinn do luchd ar fiach.
'S na leig ann am buaireadh sinn, ach saor sinn o'm olc.


but of course there are also other Gaelic versions. in the 1812 Tiomnadh Nuadh published in Edinburgh, the opening lines are as follows instead, but the "t" is still there:

Ar n-Athair a ta air nèamh, gu naoimhaichear t'ainm.
Thigeadh do rioghachd, deanar do thoil air an talamh ...
.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar 2015 11:23 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
That's also the version my grandmother (a native speaker from Mayo) taught us, word for word, and I have seen it printed that way in mass booklets in Ireland. Interestingly, the "d" in "d'ainm" was pronounced with a soft "th" (as in the English word "think"). I've heard that "th" sound in other contexts, mostly in the West, and usually only among older people (my grandmother was born in the 1880's), but I don't know what the geographic spread of it may have been. Have you heard that before, a Bhríd?


Yes, it is very common to say "t-ainm" "t-athair" etc in Conamara. It would be a TH sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar 2015 12:45 am 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:

The most common Scottish Gaelic version which I've seen also has a "t" sound there, instead of the expected "d".


In Munster Irish, "t" becomes "d" when using the possessive adj. "do" before nouns beginning with a vowel. "t" for "d" was also the practice in Old Irish.


Lughaidh wrote:

there are a few spelling and grammar mistakes here: chionntíos (chinntíos? I don't know that verb but there's a "caol le caol" mistake)
inár n-aghaidh
ó olc


Any chance that the Chionntaíos could be the relative "s" i.e. a bhíonns etc...

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by An Cionnfhaolach on Thu 02 Apr 2015 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Tue 31 Mar 2015 3:12 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Btw, somewhere on the web there's a 17th century Irish version of the whole Bible, and it's quite funny.


Bedell's Bible, version from 1817:
(translation of "Tiomna Nuadh" by Uilliam Ó Domhnuill, Anglican Archbishop of Tuam)
https://archive.org/stream/bioblanaomht ... 6/mode/2up, p. 846:

[9 Air a nadhbharsin déanaidhsi bhur nurnúighe mar so.]
Ar Nathair atá ar neamh, Náomhthar hainm
10 Tigheadh do ríoghachd, Deúntar do thoil ar an ttalamh
mar do nithear ar neamh
11 Ar narán laéthamhail tabhair dhúinn a niu
12 Agus maith dhúinn ar bhfiacha,
mar mhaithmidne dar bhféitheamhnuibh féin
13 Agus na léig sinn a ccathughadh,
achd sáor inn ó olc: Oir is leachd féin an ríoghachd, agus an chumhachd, agus an ghlóir, go siórruighe. Amen.

Original orthography
cc, tt for eclipsis (= gc, dt)
hainm (= th'ainm?)
inn beside sinn (léig sinn but sáor inn)
Most strange thing: leachd for leat. (kinda Scottish Gaelic pre-aspiration?)


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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr 2015 7:06 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
That's also the version my grandmother (a native speaker from Mayo) taught us, word for word, and I have seen it printed that way in mass booklets in Ireland. Interestingly, the "d" in "d'ainm" was pronounced with a soft "th" (as in the English word "think"). I've heard that "th" sound in other contexts, mostly in the West, and usually only among older people (my grandmother was born in the 1880's), but I don't know what the geographic spread of it may have been. Have you heard that before, a Bhríd?

Most of the dialects would have that sounds in that context, i.e. t'ainm, using do = your before vowels. The actual sound itself is the normal Irish broad t, it'd even be used in Hiberno-English today by people in their 20s or younger.

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 Post subject: Re: Tiomna Nua (1970)
PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2015 2:10 pm 
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The 'th' in think is a dental fricative, is it not...

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