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 Post subject: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Fri 26 Jun 2015 4:02 pm 
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I know that, in written Irish, g is eclipsed by n, but is the actual sound that eclipses g 'ng'? For example, would 'i nGaillimh' be pronounced 'i ng-aillimh' or 'i n-aillimh'? I just want to clarify this.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Fri 26 Jun 2015 4:41 pm 
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Yes, it's the velar nasal. Same as in English 'sing'.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Fri 26 Jun 2015 5:01 pm 
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andyroo wrote:
I know that, in written Irish, g is eclipsed by n, but is the actual sound that eclipses g 'ng'? For example, would 'i nGaillimh' be pronounced 'i ng-aillimh' or 'i n-aillimh'? I just want to clarify this.


Yep. Sometimes a hard concept for English speakers to get right away (I've had students ask me "how can you put "ng" at the beginning of a word?"). When I teach it, I usually use "i ngrá" as an example. I have students say "sing raw" a couple of times, and then drop the "s" off of "sing." That usually helps them to get it.

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Fri 26 Jun 2015 11:35 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification. I was getting mixed messages about it. I was taught that the letter that eclipsing the other one is the one that is pronounced (e.g. in 'nDoire' the D is effectively dropped) but I suppose it would look a bit unusual to write 'ng' at the start of a word because that would result in a double g, e.g. i ngGaillimh', which, as far as I know, isn't seen in Irish so it would look a bit strange. I was wondering because, in the other cases of eclipsis, the consonants just turn into a more 'voiced' version of themselves but they are voiced from the same part of the mouth, so it would make more sense for g to turn into ng than into n.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sat 27 Jun 2015 1:02 am 
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andyroo wrote:
I was wondering because, in the other cases of eclipsis, the consonants just turn into a more 'voiced' version of themselves but they are voiced from the same part of the mouth, so it would make more sense for g to turn into ng than into n.



That's exactly what's happening. Voiceless consonants become voiced, and voiced ones become nasal, all keeping the manner and place of articulation. You can find some interesting information on the origin of the initial mutations on this Gramadach na Gaeilge page


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sat 27 Jun 2015 3:24 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
andyroo wrote:
I was wondering because, in the other cases of eclipsis, the consonants just turn into a more 'voiced' version of themselves but they are voiced from the same part of the mouth, so it would make more sense for g to turn into ng than into n.
That's exactly what's happening. Voiceless consonants become voiced, and voiced ones become nasal, all keeping the manner and place of articulation. You can find some interesting information on the origin of the initial mutations on this Gramadach na Gaeilge page

Go raibh maith agat to both to you for bringing this up! This has totally cleared up my newbie confusion around eclipsis.
:GRMA:


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sat 27 Jun 2015 4:29 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
Yep. Sometimes a hard concept for English speakers to get right away (I've had students ask me "how can you put "ng" at the beginning of a word?"). When I teach it, I usually use "i ngrá" as an example. I have students say "sing raw" a couple of times, and then drop the "s" off of "sing." That usually helps them to get it.

Redwolf
That sounds like a very straightforward way to explain it. :clap:

I was recently trying to write a description using English sounds how to say 'i gceann' and couldn't come up with anything close. That is without mentioning the 'ch' sound in something like 'mo chos'. We need a 'tearing my hair out' smilie.

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun 2015 12:03 am 
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Quote:
I was recently trying to write a description using English sounds how to say 'i gceann' and couldn't come up with anything close.


"ig yonn" ?

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sun 28 Jun 2015 12:02 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
I was recently trying to write a description using English sounds how to say 'i gceann' and couldn't come up with anything close.


"ig yonn" ?
Thanks for that. That is definitely better than what we had. We had the i on its own, but couldn't figure gcionn. What you have is much better. :GRMA:

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipsis of 'g'
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul 2015 1:19 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
I was recently trying to write a description using English sounds how to say 'i gceann' and couldn't come up with anything close.


"ig yonn" ?

:yes: Or even "ig yawn".

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