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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jul 2019 7:39 pm 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
silmeth wrote:
beannachtaibh (hence I’d guess also Gaeltachtaibh, or in old spelling Gaedhealtachtaibh, although I cannot find any examples… I guess the usage of Gaeltacht in plural is too modern an invention)


The dative plural is Gaeltachtaíbh, and beannachtaíbh is also a variant form.


Can you provide any source on that? You yourself claimed otherwise a year ago. Also Labhrás wrote back then that dat.pl. of nouns in -acht is -achtaibh.

Anyway, I couldn’t find Gaeltachtaíbh, Gaedhealtachtaíbh (nor variants with -achd- and Gaoi-) in http://corpas.ria.ie/ either. As for beannachtaíbh, I’ve found it only in the files from corkirish blog, no occurences in the Corpas Stairiúil, while there are some of beannachtaibh there (which is also mentioned in the corkirish blog files, but doesn’t seem to appear in any actual texts there).

Could it be that the -ibh variant, being the etymological one, kept its older spelling in texts by most authors while PUL wrote it down as he actually said it and heard it?

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
silmeth wrote:
Not sure how alive it is today (I’d guess it’s pretty much dead because of the lack of the form Gaeltachtaibh anywhere), but Peadar Ua Laoghaire, at the beginning of 20th century used dat.pl. regularly, I think for all the nouns.


The dative plural can be still heard in Munster (particularly Cork), but no where near as common as Peadar Ó Laoighaire's usage. Even Peadar Ua Laoghaire's usage in his own day was seen as somewhat archaic, as speakers would often comment how Peadar's Irish would remind them of the Irish of their parents and grandparents.

The strict usage of the dative plural/ singular began to die out in Munster following the famine, and began to pick up pace after 1880s.

The best speakers of Munster Irish largely retained the dative singular and plural, however, as can be seen by listening to the Munster speakers on Doegen, and by reading the folklore literature, especially from Cork.

As the dative plural began to die in Munster, the same phenomenon that occurred in Connacht-as you have already mentioned--of the dative plural termination spreading to the nominative plural also occurred; especially in East Cork and Kerry. Hence, why you'll find fearaibh and ceannaibh as alternative nominative plurals.

The dative singular still remains to a certain extent in Munster also, especially with words ending in a nasal genitive: teanga (dat. teagain), guala (dat. gualainn), bó (dat. boin); and with words like fuinneog (dat. fuinneoig) and cloch (dat. cloich). The dative features less so with words like talamh (dat. talúin/ talamh). The masculine dative doesn't survive except with lá (dat. ló: insa ló, don ló) [also survives in Connacht] and with set, prepositional phrases using cionn (as it does everywhere else). Even in the case of the survival of ló, this may also be the result of formulaic set phrasing, as insa ló really means 'daily': ocht (n-)euro insa ló 'eight euros a day/ daily; and don ló, is really part of the phrase: don ló amáireach 'tomorrow': e.g. cad athá ar siúl agat 'what are you doing (for the day) tomorrow'.

Again, like the other dialects, the dative singular feminine has largely replaced the nominative. Even in the case of lámh, cos, cluas, bos, and bróg, the dative form can also be used as the nominative: i.e. láimh, cois, cluais, bois, and bróig.

Personally, I always always use the dative, both plural and singular.


Thanks for this much deeper in-sight. :)


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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jul 2019 12:26 am 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
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Quote:
Can you provide any source on that? You yourself claimed otherwise a year ago. Also Labhrás wrote back then that dat.pl. of nouns in -acht is -achtaibh.

Anyway, I couldn’t find Gaeltachtaíbh, Gaedhealtachtaíbh (nor variants with -achd- and Gaoi-) in http://corpas.ria.ie/ either. As for beannachtaíbh, I’ve found it only in the files from corkirish blog, no occurences in the Corpas Stairiúil, while there are some of beannachtaibh there (which is also mentioned in the corkirish blog files, but doesn’t seem to appear in any actual texts there).

Could it be that the -ibh variant, being the etymological one, kept its older spelling in texts by most authors while PUL wrote it down as he actually said it and heard it?


I would also see it that way.

Gaeltachtaibh is the historically correct form, as the nominative plural etymologically ended in -achta, as Labhrás was saying.

However, the nom. plural -achtaí--upon which dative plurals became to be influenced by--was well in existence prior to Peadar Ua Laoghaire.

See Dineen's dictionary where the plural -achtaí is the only plural listed: http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/popup.php?lang ... -beann.png . Cf. bennacht on eDIL: http://www.dil.ie/search?q=bennacht&search_in=headword.

[Coincidentally, the dative plural forms listed in eDIL are ben[n]achtoibh and bennachtnaibh, reflecting the n-stem: ar nī fírḟlaith nad nīamat bī bennachtnaib (benachtoibh, v.l.)].

In the 'Foclóirín' on the CorkIrish site: https://corkirish.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/ot5.pdf , it says that PUL used both -achtaíbh and -achtaibh as d.pl. for beannacht.

So, if you're seeking to use Gaeltacht within a historical paradigm, then you'd use -aibh. However, if you are looking to speak Irish as it was spoken at the turn of the last century, then you can use either.

Cian

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(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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