It is currently Mon 24 Jun 2019 11:35 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed 02 Jan 2019 3:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 15 Dec 2018 1:32 am
Posts: 20
Hi. I have found the above phrase: "bhíthidhe ag taidhbhreamh damh in mo shuan go..." from
(https://docplayer.net/53358226-Inflecti ... irish.html)
which accordingly translates to: It used to seem to me in my sleep that

The problem is that I can't find much surrounding two words used in the sentence. The first is the word "bhíthidhe". Very few sources exist on the internet, it is not in teanglann.ie and the only one I could find is: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/focla.htm

The second word is slightly less ambiguous in it's origins. Again not in teanglann.ie , however, one source translates it to "the dream" as if it were a noun. (https://books.google.ie/books?id=JXIv00 ... mh&f=false

Another link (http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1295516573) backs this up where it is said "Taidhbhreamh. Do deineadh taidhbheamh dom. I dreamt."

So I'm just looking for a more solid explanation surrounding the use of the word bhíthidhe and it's origins and secondly, whether "Taidhbhreamh" means "dream"?

Thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 02 Jan 2019 8:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1495
ailig_ab wrote:
Hi. I have found the above phrase: "bhíthidhe ag taidhbhreamh damh in mo shuan go..." from
(https://docplayer.net/53358226-Inflecti ... irish.html)
which accordingly translates to: It used to seem to me in my sleep that

The problem is that I can't find much surrounding two words used in the sentence. The first is the word "bhíthidhe". Very few sources exist on the internet, it is not in teanglann.ie and the only one I could find is: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/focla.htm

The second word is slightly less ambiguous in it's origins. Again not in teanglann.ie , however, one source translates it to "the dream" as if it were a noun. (https://books.google.ie/books?id=JXIv00 ... mh&f=false

Another link (http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1295516573) backs this up where it is said "Taidhbhreamh. Do deineadh taidhbheamh dom. I dreamt."

So I'm just looking for a more solid explanation surrounding the use of the word bhíthidhe and it's origins and secondly, whether "Taidhbhreamh" means "dream"?

Thank you


The reason you can't find them on teanglann is because the forms you cited are written in pre-standardised orthography.

(Do) bhíthidhe is the habitual past (imperfect indicative), passive form of the verb . This has been standardised to do bhítí in modern orthography: https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/Bí

For clarification, I've broken up the word into Bhí-th-idhe. I'll explain where the -th- and the -aidhe come from.

-idhe
In pre-standardised, Modern-Irish spelling -idhe/ aighe--bhíthidhe--is pronounced as an í. When the orthography was standardised in the late 1940s, these consonant clusters were simplified to -í- or aío--whether or not the consonant clusters were historical in origin (return to what I mean by 'historical' in a second).

Hence,

Ceannaigh + eann, ceannaigheann > ceannaíonn.
Fíannaigheacht/ Fíannaidheacht > Fiannaíocht.
Scéalaigheacht/ scéalaidheacht > scéalaíocht.
Bhíthidhe > bhít(h)í.

What I mean by historical aighe/aidhe-consonant clusters are those that would have had a basis in the pronunciation of earlier forms of the language; these would have originally been an unlenited voiced -g-./-d-; e.g. Fíannaigheacht and Scéalaigheacht derive from Old Irish Fíanaigecht/ scélaigecht, both pronounced with a voiced -g-. As the language shifted from Middle to Early-Modern Irish, the -g- became lenited--as the consonant is flanked on both sides by vowels (this phenomenon is a feature of all Celtic languages)--and eventually -gh- became devoiced causing the vowels to fall together, which results in (a) a dyphthong, or (b) in compensatory lengthening (whereby one of the vowels becomes long).

So,

Scélaigecht > scéalaigheacht > scéalaieacht > scéalaíocht.

As aighe/aidhe came to be pronounced as an /ee/, it simply became another means of writing í, so aighe/aidhe spread to places where the cluster was ahistorical. The -idhe in bhíthidhe is one of those places, as the Old Irish imperfect indicative of was (no) bíthe

-th-
You may recall that in the standard form of the language the -t- is unlenited, i.e. bhítí. The lenition here is a dialectal feature. It follows the propensity in some dialects--especially Cork--for the -t- in passives to become lenited; e.g. chíthear, instead of chítear/ feictear, snámhthar, rather than snámhtar etc... The phenomenon also occurs in Ulster Irish when a -t- in passive terminations is flanked on both sides by vowels (see argument above).

Let's examine the link you provided with the second instance of bhíthidhe. It is written in lovely Ulster Irish: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/focla.htm

Do a ctrl + f (search function), type in tear, the general passive termination of the present indicative, note:

adeirtear
bheirtear
ltear

Here you can see that the -t-s are preceded by consonants, and are not flanked by vowels.

Now type thear into the search function, note:

bíthear
ghníthear
nighthear (prnounced as níthear).

Here we can see that when the -t- is preceded and proceeded by vowels the -t- is lenited.

This source, combined with the other sentences in the paragraph of your original link for bhíthidhe, and the use of damh, instead of dom, tells me that your original sentence is written in Ulster Irish.

Taidhbhreamh again is a pre-standardised form of taibhreamh:
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/Taibhreamh

Meaning 'dream, vision, manifestation'.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 02 Jan 2019 10:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1087
I try to pronounce words in old spelling to find their modern form: Bhíthidhe is obviously pronounced /vi:hi:/, so the modern spelling is probably bhíthí.
But grammar was standardised, too. Traditional pre-standard verbal endings with th (like -thí) lost their lenition, i.e. -tí, so: bhítí.
(Though there is still -th- in some dialects, as in Ulster Irish)

McCloskey gives a verbatim translation in his paper: "be[PAST-HABIT-AUT] ...", so it is clear, that bhíthidhe is modern bhítí.

Tai(dh)bhreamh is a noun, a verbal noun. Depending on context it must be translated as verb or noun.
Here, it is a progressive tense, bheith ag taibhreamh, be dreaming.
tá mé ag taibhreamh = I am dreaming.
That is present progressive of taibhraím = I dream.

Verbs like taibhrigh can be used impersonally, using the autonomous form and the preposition do:
taibhrítear dom, "One dreams to me" -> "me dreams" (like "methinks", compare German "mir träumt")
In present progressive this is:
táthar ag taibhreamh dom
In past habitual progressive this is:
bhítí ag taibhreamh dom

Bhítí ag taibhreamh dom in mo shuan go ...
"One used to be dreaming to me in my sleep that ..." -> Me (often) dreamt in my sleep that ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 11 Jan 2019 1:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 15 Dec 2018 1:32 am
Posts: 20
Cian, I honestly, truly appreciate the time it must have taken you to write that answer. Same goes for you Labhrás. Thank you both.

Since it can be translated to "One used to be dreaming to me in my sleep that", are there certain circumstances where we can say "It used to seem to me in my sleep that". I'm just trying to understand where one would say "It used to seem to me" rather than use the actual or literal translation and whether there is a direct translation for "It used to seem to me that..."?

Thank you both again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 11 Jan 2019 10:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1087
ailig_ab wrote:
Cian, I honestly, truly appreciate the time it must have taken you to write that answer. Same goes for you Labhrás. Thank you both.

Since it can be translated to "One used to be dreaming to me in my sleep that", are there certain circumstances where we can say "It used to seem to me in my sleep that". I'm just trying to understand where one would say "It used to seem to me" rather than use the actual or literal translation and whether there is a direct translation for "It used to seem to me that..."?

Thank you both again.


Those are literal translations.
Usage of imperfect tense is necessary when something occurs regularly, usually in the past, i.e. always, often, sometimes or never.
so, less verbatim: I (usually/always/often) dreamt that ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 11 Jan 2019 2:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm
Posts: 563
ailig_ab wrote:
...whether there is a direct translation for "It used to seem to me that..."?


Nothing to do with dreaming, the past habitual autonomous form of the verb feic ('see') + preposition do ('to/for') would do the job nicely: d'fheictí dom go/gur


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group